Now you seems very sure that it is Central Java (where form, I'm agree speaking from modern understanding), you mention at first 'no idea at all where it might have been made' then 'very probable Surakarta' (even you note that you are not speaking that it was made in Surakarta) then somehow you associate it with Banyumas given remarkable similar engraving style-and that is very different from Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta. I'm sorry but if you have another two minutes could you please elaborate how such engraving can be positively associated with Banyumas? I thought Banyumas style are more notable for their embossing so I must be wrong in this case so I hope you don't mind to spend another minute or two to enlighten me on how to differentiate Banyumas style pendoks from their Surakarta counterpart in their engraving technique or is it the quality of workmanship that qualify, material or the decoration?

On the occasional jogja hilt with similar work that you refer, is it the work (technique etc), material, decoration or are you try to explain something else in here? Or is it simply Putri Kinurung jogja hilt?

Within my perception nunggak semi hilt is nothing alien in Sunda society (you might want to find some internet photos on some royal Sunda museum collection of Cirebon and Sumedang to illustrate this), and I'm not just speaking about modern day collector who collect just about everything in here. If decoration is important, I can show a very simple hilt where there's no distinct scroll work, mega mendung motif etc needed by a Sundanese to express his work. On the other hand, I can not see how the decoration on Detlef's hilt can be associated with Central Java (other than the overall shape which we all agree) as we in Central Java are crazy about how neat and delicate the cecekan (patra) is etc, a feature usually even missing in Sunda region. I also remember the decoration on the back of the hilt somewhere in a Sundanese sword metal sheath, but I can't remember which piece until now as I've handle quite a few of these. Further the material is not something preferred in Central Java where things, traditionally, doesn't move much from wood or ivory. This is not the case with Sunda. We witness how parallel the West and East Java in terms of hilt variation and examples has been shown by both regions, including the core-metal technique. Also not to forget that many Sunda hilt has a low grade silver or mamas selut which is often poorly done (and very distinct from Surakarta selut), the material is nothing but similar to those I understand as Banyumas pendok.

Thank you in advance for your time.

Tunggulametung, I am not in the slightest degree interested in getting into a debate with you, nor anybody else, on where this particular hilt may have been made.

I believe I have made that amply clear in all of my posts.

I just don't care where anybody may attribute the thing to in respect of where it was made, or where it may have been worn.

I have made comments based upon my experience, and I am not about to get into giving tuition on how to tell the difference between Jogja work, Solo work and Banyumas work. Anybody who has regularly handled old pendok from these locations can tell at a glance, anybody who has not will need to look in another direction than me for the necessary education.

I have provided my opinion, accept it, or reject it, I simply do not care.

I suggest you may care to read my post #40 again, and try to understand what I have written.It appears your inability to gain a clear understanding of what I have written is causing you to believe I am interested in engaging in some sort of debate.

I am not.

I'm sorry if you perceive that way but also not my intention. We are here to discuss.

Have a good day :)

Yes, that was the way I read your post, but if you say that your intention was not to debate the matter, fair enough, my comment is withdrawn.

However, my position is still the same, in simple terms:-

1)-- the form of this hilt is Central Javanese.

2)-- this form has been associated with Central Jawa since at least the mid- 1700's ( see Jensen)

3)-- it is the Central Javanese form that follows Surakarta form

4)-- it may have been made anywhere

5)-- the line engraving, ( or perhaps the correct term may be incising, as the technique used does not involve cutting, and equally does not involve the embossing process, but rather is carried out by inscribing a line into the surface of the metal with a blunt tool that is pressed and drawn), is similar to that used on old Banyumas pendok; I have not seen this technique used on metal work associated with Surakarta, nor have I seen it on work that can be clearly identified as coming from other areas, but I have seen a few examples on old Jogja pendoks.

6)-- I am not putting forward an opinion on where this hilt may have been made, nor am I putting forward an opinion where it may have been worn, nor am I providing a hypothesis on the conditions under which it may have been worn. I have made a number of comments that are based upon my personal experience, and the opinion given relates to the similarity of workmanship in this hilt with the workmanship to be found in old Banyumas pendok, it also relates to the form of the hilt.

Do not interpret these very limited opinions to construe more than they are intended to construe.

Well yes it is a discussion forum and not a debate forum but debate or let say argument is integral part of discussion so often we don't realize however it is an important aspect to build a good discussion ;)

Great, thank you for your reply. I guess it is because from how I learn Banyumas pendok usually come in emboss work and attribute more engrave/incise to Surakarta (other than emboss) but be sure I'm telling the truth when I'm saying often lost on how they differ even though I have handle many Central Java pendoks (not that regularly though). I don't count Jogja on this statement because most of the time I'm confidence I can tell when it is Jogja.

Yes, Solo work is certainly engraved, even though we mostly see Solo embossed pendoks, these are made for Solo, not made in Solo, the reason being purely economic, as even the lowest priced Solo engraved pendok is quite expensive.

I suspect that we're possibly getting a little bit of confusion in terminology here Tunggulametung. The Banyumas technique that I have referred to as "engraved", or "incised", you may well be thinking of in terms of "embossed".

I have seen all three of these techniques carried out. Engraving uses gravers --- little chisels --- driven by hand and hammer. Embossing uses punches driven by hammer. The Banyumas technique uses a blunt scriber that is drawn over the face of the metal and leaves a line, it does not remove metal, but leaves an impressed line.To my knowledge this technique has not been used commercially for a very long time.

However, all of this is neither here nor there:- the work on the hilt looks like Banyumas pendok work, no matter how it was done. The embossing in the cecekan panel has obviously been executed by a different technique, and it is not this work that is under discussion, but the ornamentation on the planes.

Debate vs. Discussion
 

Just a word or two here on the subject gentlemen. As i see it we are clearly here to "discuss". For me at least the word "debate" implies a more aggressive approach as in debate the debater is generally trying his best to WIN his argument. I see no necessity for such a "victory" in our discussions on these boards. :)

My point exactly David. I agree wholeheartedly.

I read Tunggulametung's post # 41 as being presented in the style of debate, he assured me that my interpretation was incorrect, and I accept his assurance.

Thanks David, it is clear that I need to learn how to compose a better English sentences when seeking for answer/confirmation in a discussion board ;) Again not my intention to debate or win my argument although it may sounded in such a way, I might don't realize it the time I compose my post. I apologize to Alan and all the readers should they might sounded harsh in the way they were presented.

A note for Alan:
I suspect that we're possibly getting a little bit of confusion in terminology here Tunggulametung. The Banyumas technique that I have referred to as "engraved", or "incised", you may well be thinking of in terms of "embossed".

No I understand how they differ. I'm trying to say in my previous post that I learn the way Banyumas pendok done were more in emboss and not engraved/incised but chances I get mixed with Surakarta pendok as there are many times when I can not tell how they differ. But perhaps we should save that for another discussion as we are here to discuss a hilt ;)

Anyway, just like Alan, I think I have note down all things I know and should anybody want to suggest his opinion shall this thread back to the subject as it was first intended by the thread starter :)

Thank you

I know that this thread is about a hilt, but it seems that we have been drawn into discussion of the different types of techniques that have been used to make pendok coming from differing locations.

I hope that the accompanying photos, although not of particularly good quality, will be adequate to illustrate the differences we have been talking about.

Photo 'A' is of four old Banyumas pendok that have had the motif applied by what I shall call incising; 'B' is a close up of one of those pendok. The technique was demonstrated to me perhaps 20 years ago by a craftsman who was well known within the keris trade and almost unknown outside the trade, a man who was the descendant of a line of craftsmen who had worked in the keris trade in Yogyakarta:- Bp. Pawirodihardjo, AKA Pak Walijo. He also identified this pendok style as Banyumas. The ones shown are poor examples of low quality, and in some cases have had the curve at the top flattened, so that they could be fitted to Surakarta wrongkos. Pak Walijo passed away some years ago, but his legacy will be with us for a long time to come.

Photo 'C' is a fair quality embossed Banyumas pendok in silver, 'D' is a close up.

Photo 'E' is a new Surakarta pendok with engraved motif, 'F' is a close up.

Photo 'G' is a Yogyakarta pendok with incised motif, 'H' is a close up.

The Banyumas pendok form, as explained to me by Pak Walijo, is similar to the Surakarta form but has a curved top and in some cases a lis (collar) fitted to that curved top.

I most earnestly hope that these photos clarify what I have been trying to explain.

Spot on! Example C is what I'm trying to explain in my previous post. That collar type might be one of the good hint then. Thank you for providing the examples I know I can learn from you! :)

I should have look more into example A (this is where I mixed), but just to share a view (as how you mention they are often made for Surkarta), I know for once they are supplied from Jogja (recent made) but that just one time experience and may not the case in the past or all the time and if I remember correct that is one with flat/angled opening (not curved).

Thanks again.

I'm not all that sure that a lis can be taken as a definite Banyumas origin indicator, as Madura and North Coast pendok also are sometimes found with lis.

The relationship between Banyumas and Solo pendok is that old Banyumas pendok have often been squared off at the top so that they can be used on a Solo wrongko.

Most affordable recently made pendok come from Imogiri, and are embossed. They are supplied in all styles and sold wherever keris are sold.

Yes I'm aware of that. Thank you for your note :)

Thank you all very much for this very interesting discussion! :)