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Here is the Mowbray page that better describes the sketched image of the primitive eagle shown in Gilkerson's Boarders Away.
http://files.myopera.com/3sails/albu...kersonphil.jpg I've no doubt that Gilkerson's "finest material" is drawn from the elder's pages. If image sizing is an issue, feel free to pm me with your email and we can go from there. I am on dial up but usually have some time to wait for downloads. I recently received an inquiry re eagles and the file was 9.9mb, which I had in hand after an hour's download. The shot above was with automatic camera settings with flash and other light. Many cell phones are better picture takers than my old Canon. Cheers GC |
Thank you, Glenn, for a much clearer pic of the eagle pommel sword that was but a drawn example on Gilkerson's. Upon seeing this, it becomes clear from the details that it isn't pertinent to our discussion. I must get a copy of Mowbray's book one of these days. I appreciate the clarification, but still hold true that the lion hilts were strictly American used, if not American made. "If" being the key word. Still happy with the piece all-around, though.
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Gosh, my wish list for books goes on forever. The Mowbray eagle title has a lot more information in it than just the galleries of the Medicus title with crisp succinct attributions. Mowbray (as I'm sure Bazelon's article is) took some time for both hard notes and speculation Some of my earlier posts while maybe sounding harsh do go to how Mowbray describes foundries in Philly and the cast hilts specifically.
As I am also an avid tracker of the Osborn weeping eagles as shown earlier, the definition of castings is not necessarily and absolute of origin for the assembly of the swords, or indeed the castings themselves. However, the cruder grips and longer blades do fall out of the norm for a lot of imports and that does lean towards the American side of the fence, while still not being conclusive as to manufacture. All quite definitely meant for American use, as with the sword of this subject. As with some other deeply ringed or spiraled grips, I also have thought them as "must be American" until seeing some of the same patterns turning up in Birmingham work. As mentioned, I am not one to ignore that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but something etched in stone (such as so and so was casting these grips) or in a city's journal would lead to a hard conclusion. It is that one is happy with an acquisition that is the most important. The sword does look like it was assembled, as the guard and handle look to be different metals All good points for some of the parts being American made. Cheers GC |
Apparently, 15 y.o. girls do not consider helping their dad with his "retarded sword stuff" as quality time. I will pick up a new scanner this week, and hopefully scan the article on friday.
All the Best Jeff |
:D :eek:
Reference 15 y.o. girl...Yes, I have one of those as well. She's the quintessential poster child for the American teen. We parents are just idiots, etc, etc. Glenn, that you for pointing me to this valuable reference of Mowbray's. I have browsed his other books, but not the one you show pics from. I'll definitiely add it to the wish list. Yes, I also thought it was assembled here with the slightly more primitive slot guard. I'm still wondering if the guard is either copper, brass that has pickled with age or rose brass. Does anyone out there know if there is a non-destructive way of testing/differentiating between copper and brass? I don't want to hurt the patina, though. I've only seen a few swords with copper fittings over the years, most from the Revolution and those just in small fixtures/fittings. Or am I wrong on this? (Have to look through Neumann's again...) |
In reading around outside of books and regarding the cast hilts while on a Widmann expedition, I came across a recent public uploading of a Man At Arms August 2010 article. It is in two parts and is in general reference for U.S. Marines swords but ancillary to the current discussion. It is in two parts but relates a good bit of early Philadelphia sword making. These perhaps a good bit later but the German/Prussian connections and ties are still there throughout Widmann and Horstmann operations.
www.bcadapa.org/smullen1-sm.pdf www.bcadapa.org/smullen2-sm.pdf A pair of 1788 type swords had come my way from Stanley a year of so ago. I forwarded the links to Mark at Old Swords and they should be listed there now as well. you may have to register for the articles section. http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php This seems to be a happy lot of Pa folk. Dealers and collectors. http://www.bcadapa.org/ Cheers GC |
I had skimmed through the Man-At-Arms article, but at the time, had not noted the implications of it (I also didn't have the lion hilt yet). Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it in full (you have a great scanner as everything came out crystal clear!).
Now I don't want to sound like a dunce, but I want to make sure I took the same info from the article. Widmann and later Horstman did make these brass one-piece pommel/grips and guards? The blades were imported, but the guards were marked with these American makers? I know they came later in sword-making vs the item being discussed, but still an interesting step in the direction of brass casting. I used the OldSwords site for many years and was a member back when it was free- :o :cool: . Yes, I do have to sign up and check out that article. I've talked with Mr Cloke via email forever ago with questions on naval swords. I've likewise bought at least one of Mr Long's swords awhile back. I'll try to "upgrade" to the site soon. |
Oh, I see I misread an earlier post. You took pics and no scanner use. Wow, that's one good camera.
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Brass, brass and more brass...
http://www.ushistory.org/carpentersh...calltoarms.htm
http://www.thayeramericana.com/back/.../research7.pdf http://massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=275 Google search 'A Case for Stability' By Samuel Crowthers (google books) My point being, if all of these things were being made in well-known Philadelphia foundries in the period we speak of with established provenance, why not sword hilts? Perhaps they still just haven't come to light. After all, a few web searches reveil large cast andirons, intricate cabinet furnishings, large bells, and mention of weapon fixtures. The Paul Revere article talks about the brass fittings for the U.S.S. Constitution being made in 1797. I forgot a major point by Bazelon in his article. He had mentioned the large flux of foreign craftsmen coming into America at this time (pointing out a Scot that might have been making blades along with Rose and Prahl just as one example). If the supposed skill of working in brass was absent with the American craftsmen (an opinion I would challenge regardless of this sword), perhaps one of those craftsmen working in the Philly area was responsible, much like the Houndslow German craftsmen in Great Britain? Just another thought... |
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Happy New Year GC |
Now I see your point of caution. Not a denial, simply a waiting for more evidence. Makes perfect sense and still leaves room for exciting new developments in this area of study.
Happy New Year to all at the Forum! Mark |
More on the brass hilts
In the newest Man-At -Arms magazine this month is an excellent article on the so-called Prahl eagle head swords with many of the same remarks and points brought up in our discussion. Specifically, the fact that many of these early eagle-head types had imported blades, but the jury is out on whether the hilts (one piece affairs of solid brass with 'ugly' eagle and 10 sided grips) were made in Philly or elsewhere. As these swords were made for the militias, the author of the article implies that most of these, IRON hilted included, were probably either individual or militia private purchase. Interesting that these Prahl-types had the same characteristics as our lion-hilt (solid brass one piece cast figural hilt, some crude and others more refined, private purchase, many with the 4 and 6 slot guards). Great article, by the way...
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Thanks for an update. The author of the article was whom, you might mention?
I don't subscribe, so I have to live vicariously with what any may care to share. This quarter's budget just ate up a back up machine and in finding another book to buy. Cheers GC |
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Great posts Mark as always!!!! Ahhh………….research...…...remember, "more research to be done!" ??? :) |
Hi Jim!
Hello Jim and good to hear from you. Wow, I had almost forgotten about this old post! Has it really been almost 10 years??! Getting old! Unfortunately, I don't have that sword anymore. It was a nice piece, but I traded it in for something more appropriately naval. Thanks for digging this one up and reminding me the importance, as you always say, in research! Talk to ya soon, Cap'n!
Mark |
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