Hi there,

Ottmar, my expert and learned friend on edged weapons, states that the sword in question is in any case some Christian Order's sword, and a very important one too. He cannot explain the meaning of the signs on it, though.

Best,
Michael

Not at all Marc!
I think that the focus on this cross on the pommel, while compelling, has proven to be more of a distraction than helpful clue, though it has led to some interesting and comprehensive depth to the discussion.

As noted earlier, as we tried to determine exactly who the Templars were as far as the array of monastic and military orders primarily based on these knights, whose name was taken from reference to the original Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. As has been noted throughout the discussion, the cross itself reflects that the sword probably belonged to an individual of one of these orders, and attempts have been made to determine by the style of the cross, which of the orders it might have been.

According to many resources and thier depictions of variously flourished and shaped crosses, certain styles have been attributed to particular orders and groups. While some can be considered reliably associated or used by the groups named, I am concerned that some of this material might be influenced by 'heraldic license and interpretation' in more recent writing and embellishment of the historical detail.

It has been well noted by Reichsritter that the House of Savoy in North Italy used the silver cross, and suggesting possible association to this sword which was of course found in Italy. However, drawing the relation to the cross and its being a Templar device, plus the fact that it is of silver, cannot conclude that all members, or even any, of the House of Savoy were Templars. It remains an excellent observation however in the process of observing this swords features

Thank you Reichsritter also for the followup in your response as well as for the note on crusaders seals which hopefully will bring more entries.
Also, Thilo, thank you for trying to find the sword with the cross in the pommel and for showing the excellent example despite not the one you were looking for.

Returning to matters at hand, Marcs suggestion of determining which type of cross this might be and aligning with those used by known orders is of course well placed, but the cross here seems as if it has lost some of its detail in the extremities. As we have determined, various crosses were used by the many orders which evolved around the 'Templars' and as Michael's friend has noted, the only thing we can suggest is association to one of the orders, without knowing which.

Again, the strongest supporting denominator is Cesares description of the provenance of the sword, being excavated near a town where Templar preence had been established in the period of this sword by its classification.

It is known, again as previously mentioned, that the cross has been applied to weapons, swords in particular, since the time of Charlemagne, and was well known being applied to scabbards, blades and pommels. It was inherently a protective and talismanic symbol, as well as one of piety and faith, being used widely and not necessarily only by these orders, as well suggested by Marc.
As far as the use of silver, the precious metal, in embellishing a sword pommel with a cross in this sense, I personally do not see this as an element of 'personal adornment' but more reflective of reverence as used in many often seemingly ostentatious religious vestments.

While the idea of the Templars as austere warrior monks seems to be based on thier humble origins as 'The Poor Knights of Christ' as the Templars were originally known, it seems that later more latitude might have become afforded to thier wear, especially toward the sword as the key weapon in the codes of chivalry. It does not seem that a simple cross placed on a pommel, for application as described, and which corresponded to the cross worn on thier mantle, would be considered personal adornment. Just as changes in the equipment worn by these forces were encouraged by the Pope himself, the placement of a cross, in the precious metal worthy of the sword, which was considered in effect a Holy instrument, would seem well placed.

Leaving the focus on the cross on the pommel, I would once more try to look into the markings on the blade, which I have brought up previously and for some reason does not seem to be attracting any interest.

I will express this again to prevent everyone having to have to search through the posts....the III....III with indeterminable marking between is in the same configuration as these type markings on Frankish swords, namely thise marked INGELRII for one, of the 10th century and later. Although this blade seems clearly of 13th century form, why are these markings on this blade, and might there be significant clues in that feature?

Cesare, I really do want to thank you again for bringing this fascinating sword to our forum! and quite honestly, along with the others Im sure, am anxious to see other pieces you are researching.
Might I implore you once again, to give more closeups of the markings to which I have referred?

All very best regards,
Jim

Ciao a tutti
Voglio ringraziare Jim, David, Fernando, Michael, e tutt gli altri amici che hanno contribuito al thread.

Devo dire che condivido le vostre conclusioni.
La spada è quanto meno interessante sotto molti punti di vista.
Non possiamo affermare con sicurezza che è la spada dei templari o dei cavalieri di San Giovanni.
Comunque è una magnifica spada. Impugnarla è un vero piacere.
Io aggiungo che molto probabilmente la spada è un remake di una più antica.
L'impugnatura è piccola, sproporzionata col resto della spada. La tipologia della lama, come giustamente sottolinea John, è più antica rispetto al fornimento . Del resto le lame costavano moltissimo, quindi non meravigliamoci se venivano riciclate.
Tempo fa ho visionato uno spadino con lama a frantopino. della fine del 1600 ÷ inizio 1700.
La lama era stata ricavata modificando una firmata da un noto spadaio di Toledo e datata 1525.

Presto vi proporrò nuove e interessanti armi. La collezione del museo è piuttosto corposa.

A presto
Cesare

Hello everyone
I want to thank Jim, David, Fernando, Michael, and all other friends who have contributed to the thread.

I must say that I agree with your conclusions.
The sword is at least interesting from many points of view.
We can not say with certainty that it is the sword of the Templars or the Knights of St. John.
However, it is a magnificent sword. Challenge it is a real pleasure.
I would add that the sword is most likely a remake of an older one.
The grip is small and disproportionate to the rest of the sword. The type of blade, as John rightly points out, is older than the hilt. Moreover, the blade is very expensive, so do not be surprised if they were recycled.

Some time ago I reviewed a small sword with frantopino blade dated from late 1600 to early 1700.
The blade was derived by changing one, signed by a famous swordsmith of Toledo and dated 1525 !

Soon I will propose new and interesting weapons. The museum's collection is quite substantial.

See you soon
Cesare

We sure are all eyes to see more of the museum's treasures, Cesare! ;)

Best,
Michael

I agree Cesare, we look forward to more of these amazing treasures. Who knows how many mysteries lie hidden in them, very much like the mystery of those blade markings on this one!

While the answer to the markings on this blade defy our attention, perhaps new mysteries will have more results in our discussions.

A note to Dmitry, thank you for your notes from the Boccia & Coelho reference! I had meant to include that but got lost in my ramblings (as usual :).

All best regards,
Jim

Very, very nice
 

First, my apologies for how long it has taken me to reply to this thread. This is an amazingly nice sword and I genuinely appreciate your sharing it with us.

I apologize for the poor technical quality of the photograph, but this is from the blade of a Viking Age sword of mid-tenth century date:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vmuseum/vmx4i.jpg

Two groups of three lines each on the forte, perpendicular to the length executed as iron inlays in a pattern welded blade (Oakeshott Records X.4). I obviously do not know the meaning of the pattern, but here is an earlier iteration of it.

At first glance the blade really looked Oakeshott X / Geibig 5 to me, but the more I look at it I have come to believe the best fit is an Oakeshott XII. Mr. Oakeshott was revising his dates earlier towards the end of his life and he places a number of these blades with silver inlays into the 11th century, so my personal suspicion is that this is from the eleventh through first half of the twelfth century (1000-1150). As noted above, a brazil nut form 'moving' to round. Peek at the pommel of JPO2242 from Paris (Swords of the Viking Age pp 128-130) and the blade of NM1174:1 from Helsinki (SVA pp 138-139).

in answer
 

Hi Lee. Pattern is just that a pattern showing on the blade produced from the action of welding the metal together. strips of metal maybe 5 or 6 strips sometimes more each strip of metal having various degrees of carbon .would be heated and hammered together time and time again to produce the blade. At any time during the process if the metal gets to hot or cold the whole process was wreaked and started again using new metal.
what the pattern shows on the blade is the joining lines of these metal strips.
hope that helps explain things a little better. michael

Hi all,

Pommel and blade inscription:
The pommel is indeed a final phase of the brazil-nut pommel. Oakeshott published in the sword in the Age of chivalry, a copper grave work of an alter made by Rodkerus of Helemeshausen in 1118. see picture.
Oakeshott quote"these inscriptions are not in the form of names,........,but of various apparently meaningless combinations of upright lines, crosses and circles,and in one case an interlaced pattern"Unquote.

the very short grip:
As can be also seen on this work the hand is too large for the grip.
Oakeshotts explanation is that the curve of the pommel in combination with the short grip gives a firm support to the hand and acts as a fulcrum to help an upward swing of the sword.

Classification:
the sword is typically an Oakeshott type XII but an early one with the characteristic of the short grip of the type XI.
After the important finds of Viking graves at Ristiina/Kangassalain/Finland by Jorma Leppaaho published in 1964. al lot of of type XI and XII had to be re-dated in the several museums and corrected in literature, which Oakeshott did in ROMS.
this sword can be dated in the period Lee indicates.1100-1150



regards,