Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own.

That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have.

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.

Greetings,

Sorry to jump in like this but I feel compelled to and in the following I´ll explain why.

Yes, it is true that there is variance to methods used to maintain and restore a keris and it´s dress within different areas and groups of people associated with the keris. That is OK, each to his own, and all that. Yes, it is wonderful that knowledge is shared – is that not the very reason for the existence of this forum? Yes, it is true that - and I quote - "In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed." That is true also BUT, and this is a big but, all here do not share this view. In fact to many - myself included - the dress is also of utmost importance, sometimes even more so than the actual blade itself regardless of how heretic that may appear to others.

Most people here like myself are ignorant and participate in order to learn - to ask those with more experience what and what not to do in order to not mess things up. Think about the possible consequences that may result if someone ignorant who has bought a keris for it´s dress decides to clean and re-stain it´s blade and decides to follow PenangsangII´s advise:

(emphasis added)
It is clear that the above statement is made with the best of intentions but it stems from a frame in which dress is seen as something disposable. Yet for many collectors dress matters. Thus it is of utmost importance to address the pros and cons when describing these things here as people´s values differ. For someone like me thus the proposed method is not safe but a very likely guarantee to end up in the most saddest of conditions.

One should always remember the audience one is addressing. Little knowledge is dangerous if it is not understood where it stems from and what it´s implications are. Reflected against this background I feel that Mr. Maisey´s commentary on this boiling the hilt-practice within the frame of this international collectors forum was to a point if - pun intended - admittedly a bit pointy. For me personally the dress with all it´s components parts are alike culturally and artistically appreciable as is the actual blade itself. Other peoples mileage may – and does – vary, and that is why these "other people" should always be kept in mind when addressing procedures such as the proposed method of removing the hilt on an international forum such as this.

Thanks,

J.

Big G, I have read and understood this most recent post of yours, the one prior to it, and the post of Penangsang.

The comments I have made to date I personally consider to be very restrained,and in no way criticism of an unfair nature, which of course is the meaning of "denigrate". In light of the recommendations made, even though made in good faith, I consider that I have been overly polite and quite delicate in my comments.

Most certainly I have criticised the methods which are apparently employed in Singapore and Malaysia, by those entrusted with the preservation of the creations of their ancestors. However, this criticism is no way unfair. The methods described by Penangsang, and supported by yourself are methods which will cause damage, they are not methods which can be used in full assurance that no damage will result to a hilt.

Perhaps sometimes immersion in boiling water will assist in freeing a hilt from a pesi, but at what cost?

Penangsang has mentioned that he has used boiling water a number of times without damage to the hilt. I would suggest two things, firstly he has been lucky, and secondly that if he followed exactly the process he advised in his post, it is probable that the hilt could have been removed without the application of any kind of heat, but just by the application of a little professional skill.

Not only can these methods not be relied upon not to damage a hilt, but they can most certainly be relied upon to create an increased level of risk of breakage of the pesi where that pesi is heavily rusted and is being retained in the hilt by rust.This risk will be multiplied where the hilt is of ivory, bone or horn. rather than wood. Then of course, we have the tayuman situation, and old tayuman hilts are not low cost disposables.

The judicious use of heat will loosen any pesi , whether it has been retained by rust, jabung or anything else.

Boiling water will not be effective in all cases, but can be relied upon to raise the level of risk of a broken pesi, as well as a split hilt.

If one has no concern as to whether the hilt is damaged, and the pesi is broken, by all means immerse the hilt in boiling water.

However, if one wishes to free the hilt without breaking the pesi and with no damage to the hilt, then one should learn how to use heat to do this.

I most certainly accept that the methods I have recommended are not the only methods, however, they are methods used in Central Jawa by people with a great deal more experience than I have, in some cases by people who can count generations of their forebears as mranggis before them.The methods I have recommended are well tested, and they do work, not only that, but used correctly they do not ever result in damage to any part of the keris.

What I have stated here is not opinion.

It is demonstrable fact.

Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region...

And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known.

Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here...

As we Malays would say it;
"Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"...
As they are civil so are we courteous. ..

Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...

Gentlemen, please allow me to state my views here.
We have here a new collector seeking advice on methods of cleaning and restoration. I think that it is important that we consider when we give advise in such a case that the new and relatively uninformed collector may well try a method when it is suggested to him. I personally would feel remiss if i did not stand up and yell loudly from the hilltop if i were to see someone suggest a methodology which i felt could be dangerous or damaging to any part of a keris. I think that for the most part we all consider the blade to take a prime position of importance when we deal with the keris. However, i also believe that the vast majority of collectors on this forum are also interested in preserving dress, especially antique dress, and most particularly well crafted dress whenever possible. I am also not completely convinced that it is always the Malay's notion that the dress is unimportant compared to the blade. I can't, for instance, see any of our Malay collectors using this boiling water method on their favorite antique keris tajong. Neither am i convinced that well carved antique tajong hilt are at all easy to replace, even for those who live in the region and i might be wrong, but whenever i have seen tajong presented the emphasis of importance always seems to be on the dress, not the blade.
I don't think that anyone is dismissing the actuality of this practice of boiling hilts as one that it commonly done. We are simply remarking on the fact that commonly done or not, it is not a good idea. To present such a method to an impressionable new collect is also not a good idea, especially when methods have already been presented that have been proven to work and not damage any part of the keris.
I am not sure that i would use the words that Mr. Maisey has in describing this practice, however, i would not argue with his viewpoint either. Many things throughout history have been accepted by certain facet of society, but that did not make them necessarily good ideas. If you would allow an admittedly extreme example, it was once considered necessary,right and proper for a woman to throw herself (or be thrown) upon her husbands funeral pyre (sati) in Hindu culture. That it was condoned, that it was a fact, didn't make it a good idea.
I suggest that we proceed with caution here in this discussion. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to dismiss or insult the practices of any person or group of people here so i trust that we can all remain civil and calm. I see nothing wrong with discussing different ideas and method used for anything keris related on this forum, but i also think that it is most important that we make clear the possible dangers that some of these methods might hold, especially for impressionable new collectors seeking the best and lest invasive methods of restoration. Not to do so would be irresponsible :)

Big G, I thank you for your further explanation.

The situation as it applies in Singapore and Malaysia is now much more clear to me. Perhaps if something like this had been written initially you may have been able to avoid taking umbrage at my most civil and restrained comments.

My comments were most certainly critical, and were intended to be.

To offer advice such this to people with little experience or knowledge could result in severe loss for such people.Apparently you concur with this point of view, as you now advise us that you do not subscribe to the boiling water philosophy.

May I suggest that you swallow your bile and re-read my post that has seemingly caused you such offence?

To assist you in this I quote here the words to which you seem to object:-

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

Please take note:-

I have given my opinion that the act of immersing a hilt into boiling water is an act that I consider to be barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I have not said that Penangsang's effort at relating this act was one of barbarism and near idiocy; in fact, I offer Penangsang my sincere thanks for providing me with this information, as it permits me to form an opinion of the level of professionalism that is to be found in respect of keris restoration in Singapore and Malaysia.

However, although I appreciate this invaluable gain in knowledge, I repeat that to offer such advice to the inexperienced is more than a little irresponsible.

There is a very great difference between describing an act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy, and describing the recounting of that act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I'm sure that when you have reread and understood what I have written you will be able to appreciate this difference.

Now, to address your little gem of wisdom, which seems to imply that I may have been discourteous.

Big G, I always endeavor to be as polite as is possible when I write in this forum. In this present exchange I have not varied from this approach. I have restrained myself from saying what I would like to say about this boiling water business, and I have directed my very restrained criticism at the act itself. My remarks in respect of those who engage in this practice have been limited to offering some advice, which, as with all advice, they are free to accept or reject as they see fit:-

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

I most earnestly request that you read only the words I have written, rather than to imagine that which I have not written.

In order to demonstrate that I bear you no ill will because of your misrepresentation of my comments, I will terminate my involvement in this exchange at this point. Should you have anything to add, please do so in confidence that I will not respond to any further of your posts in this matter.

Mr Maisey... I fully understand what it is that you had said and the intended manner of its saying...

As a Malay would put it, I truly understand what has been written "yang tersurat" and what is implied behind it "yang tersirat". I end this exchange with you with a gift of a Pantun (Traditional Malay quatrain)...

Tumbuh di rimba si daun palas
Gugur di hutan berbelas-belas
Kata hamba kata beralas
Kata tuan duri berhias

By the woods the leaves a-twining
Green grown their tendrils a-winding
My words... are words a-soothing
Thy own.. barbed and wounding

Rgds..

Dear friends, I live in Singapore and have never used the boiling water treatment. Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it. :)

Personally, I value the few old hilts that I have and would prefer to use other techniques of hilt removal to prevent damage to them. Hilts are easily replaced but in the olden days, they are highly prized item, normally made of selected quality materials, with certain attributes to them. From a cultural aspect, it does represents something that if understood, one would value it.

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community.
I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade. ;)
I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance . :)

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be.

This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris.

In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust.

I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

Hello Shahrial,

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me.... :o :rolleyes:

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai

Alan beat me to it. The blade looks very healthy and I do hope that the pesi is in a good condition but playing it safe it certainly the way to go.


Just to emphasize: Utilizing the thumbs gives much better control than pulling with the arms.


I'd also prefer to shield the hulu from radiating heat by holding it with a padded glove (kitchen ware).

Regards,
Kai

Kai, I usually hold the hilt in my hand, this way you can feel how hot its getting. If you use a candle or a small kerosene lamp there is in fact very little radiated heat. I'm not as cautious as I advise others to be, I use a propane torch held in a vice, and pass the blade through the flame, even doing it this way and holding the hilt in my bare hand, there is very little radiated heat. I don't like to isolate myself from the hilt and the blade by using gloves, if you can feel them you know exactly how much heat is going into the keris, and where it is going.

Believe me, I've tried.. I usually use the candle technique, safest method yet.. then I'll put it in between a phone book, and gently try to twist the hilt.. This is my hardest hilt yet.. :( :)

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.

I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered.

It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled.

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience.

I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced.. ;)

Hi Alan,
Thank you for the detailed advice.. I'll proceed as suggested.. :)
Sometimes, half the fun is trying to do thing ourselves. I've a friend whom while trying to remove an old bugis hilt, broke the pesi into 3 parts.. with only half an inch left. Although it can get fixed.. the damage is done.

Yeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form.. :D I've tried at least 10 times, over a period of one year.. I've done as what Alan explained.. with one hand holding the blade to feel if it's too hot.. sometimes I use a piece of cloth, so that I can heat the blade a little hotter.. normally, 3 cycles..

So, I reckon it's normal then. Since I'm the current custodian, I'll normally take my time working on it.. Sometimes giving it some thought, to conserve or restore..

That can often be the question, Alam Shah:- conserve or restore?

Sometimes it may be more wise to leave the problem for somebody else to fix in another 50 years or so.

Regarding your friend's pesi that broke. It is entirely possible that it had rusted through in any case. If you could see the white of un-rusted steel in the separation, OK, it broke. But if you could not, it was possibly rusted through.

As long as there is some part of the pesi left it is easy to repair, and the shortened or more slender pesi is only evidence of age.This is a standard, expected part of maintenance in Jawa.

Even when the pesi is completely broken off and no part of it is left, it can be repaired, although at that point the blade has lost its integrity.

Hello Shahrial,

That's comparing a noble breed with a mundane work horse... ;) (in any case that's the beauty of handmade pieces - you can always find an excuse why you have to add something to any given collection... :p )

I'd also try to hold the temperature for a slightly longer time in this case (expecting the pesi to be glued with damar). BTW, any signs of rust build-up where the pesi enters the hilt if you can get a peek?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Shahrial,

I'm certainly with you. Actually your pics are among the most convincing I have seen so far for SEA hilts claimed to be rhino horn - the diagnostic structure can well be seen at the "head/face" (next time turn the hilt or the digicam to avoid reflections of the flash at the pertinent area). Needless to say, most "suspect" hilts prove to be (often albino) water buffalo horn upon microscopic examination...

Regards,
Kai

Step 1: Hilt Removal
 

Hello all,
Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg
The hilt is on very tight (no movement).
I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...removal002.jpg
I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...removal003.jpg
I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...removal006.jpg
I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt.
Two attempts was enough for today.
The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

Good effort imas560.. :) sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho.. ;)

I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length.

I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk.

Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you?

Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat.

You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it.

The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi.

Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force.

It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times.

If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do.

This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

Dear All,

i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts.

Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method.

I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here.

its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris....

Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference.

Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things....

If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes .

Yes ? :)

There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ?

We'll move on now ....

I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang.

I have learnt much from that which you have written.

I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed.
It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either.
Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

Thanks David for your further comments....

The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing.

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore)

In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

Popcorn, anyone?
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog.../popcorn_2.gif

Thank you again Penangsang for providing such a wonderful post for us.

I had determined that I was not going to involve myself any further in these exchanges, principally because of what I consider to be an insensitive approach to matters that really have no place in a public online Forum.However, I feel that Penangsang's most recent post does need to be addressed in order to clarify several matters for those amongst us who may not be quite so advanced in the spiritual aspects of the keris as Penangsang apparently considers himself to be.

For those of you who may be silently recoiling from the possibility that I intend to discuss the concept of yoni openly, please relax. I do not intend to open this matter to discussion, but merely to provide an understanding of the area into which we have ventured.

Penangsang has used two words that we usually only hear in a face to face situation where discussion is between close friends:- yoni, and digdaya.

Both of these words are Javanese. In this context the meaning of yoni refers to something having a magical power. The meaning of digdaya is for something to be invulnerable because of magical or supernatural power.

These words do not have the same meaning. In fact, they do not even have a similar meaning.

The power of yoni is transferable when the keris is correctly matched to its custodian, however digdaya is invulnerability that is possessed by virtue of magical or supernatural power. It may be that the tuah that has been generated by the yoni is a tuah that is capable of providing invulnerability, but very often the tuah of a keris has absolutely nothing at all to do with invulnerability, it could be concerned with profit in business, or ease of social relationships, or facility in attracting women, or any one of many other fortuitous powers.

The concept of yoni refers to an element, or factor that is the essence linking the maker of a keris with the tuah of a keris.Yoni is not a spirit nor a djin nor an identifiable thing, it is a power, or a mysterious force that fixes the tuah.

The tuah is essentially a talismanic power, and it cannot exist unless the custodian of the keris has belief that it does exist.Tuah is always a good and a positive force, but it can only exist where the keris is correctly matched to the custodian.

The strength of the yoni is linked in turn to the devoutness and the mystical knowledge of maker of the keris. Since such knowledge can only be possessed by an Mpu, this dictates that any keris which may be considered to possess yoni must be the product of an Mpu.

This theory, or hypothesis is a relatively recent one that has been popularised by an ahli keris from Solo, B.P.H. Sumodiningrat, a noble from the Karaton Surakarta.

Inherrent in this theory there is no suggestion that the tuah of a keris is directly linked to God, however there is the belief that by virtue of his devoutness and his fasting and meditation, the Mpu draws close to God.

The belief in the yoni of a keris is an element of the Javanese belief system that surrounds the keris and has its roots in Kejawen and the revival of Javanese culture which took place during the Kartosuro period. It is an attractive theory to those who are followers of Sufic mysticism, and by virtue of this the belief in the yoni theory has spread widely throughout keris bearing cultures in a very short period of time.

When we consider whether or not a keris may possess yoni there is one over-riding requirement that must be fulfilled before all others:- the keris must be the product of an Mpu. In other words the physical quality of the keris must be consistent with the product of an Mpu.

This is probably about as far as I am prepared to go in this matter.

As I have already commented, discussion of yoni is a very sensitive subject that should only be carried out in private in a face to face situation, and between trusted friends with similar levels of knowledge. It is not a subject for open or public discussion and must not be openly discussed with those who are not yet sufficiently mature to understand the implications.

What I have written above is what I have been taught. It may vary from the beliefs held by others, however, my teachers were located in Solo, and were of the same social group as the man who caused the concept of yoni to become popular.

Thank you Penang for bringing the subject of yoni to the forefront, even though i do fully understand and agree with Mr. Maisey that such discussions can only go so far in an open forum such as this. I have no concerns about the general discussion of spiritual matters in regards to keris however, even if some of our membership may not believe in these aspects, since it is in my mind intrinsic to the subject of the keris itself. I would also like to thank Mr. Maisey for his detailed, yet restained, paragraphs on the subject of yoni and digdaya. Very informative without going "too far" i think. ;) :)
Now, in regards to what you have written above, the obvious answer is because even after a second reading (i can only assume that you read Shahrial's remarks again when i pointed you to them) you still don't seem to have fully understood them. Please read them one more time since he did NOT claim that he didn't know anybody who uses the boiling method. What he DID write was that MOST of his fellow collectors do not use this method. This very clearly implies that SOME of them, how ever few, indeed DO use that method. I am making a special point of this only because i believe it is absolutely imperative that we ALL carefully read the comments of our fellow members before we respond to them, especially if we are to call those comments "preposterous". That is just common respect.

Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris.

Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated,
imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner.
Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either.

And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt.
I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water.
The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

It should also be pointed out that this keris of Imas is almost certainly not an mpu made blade and therefore has no yoni to be concerned with. I dare say the the vast majority of keris in our collections also are not mpu made.
I also agree with Henk that immersing the hilt in boiling water subjects the blade to a very similar discomfort that applying a candle flame to it will. Seems 6 of one and half a dozen of another as far as the blade is concerned. :shrug:

There is probably one other thing that I should mention while I'm on this subject, and that is the idea of "isi".

The word isi in Javanese means contents, or insides, or to be filled with. Its a pretty useful word, and it is not restricted to keris usage. For instance , if you're using the toilet, and somebody tries to open the door, you just yell "ISI!" and they go away.

Isi is not a mystical word.

But when we use it in reference to a keris it does refer to a mystical element. An element that beginners and children often confuse with the concept of tuah.This is understandable, because both tuah and isi are ideas about a mystical force within the keris.

Unlike tuah, isi can exist in any keris. It does not come from the Mpu, as tuah does. It might be inherent in the iron before the keris is even made, it might be due to an occurrence during forging, it might be caused by some event during its life, it might be purposely introduced by magical practice. Isi can enter a keris from a multitude of sources.

Again, unlike tuah, it is not always a positive power, but can also be negative, and unlike tuah it is not selective in whom it affects.

Isi is a universal force that in fact has no form, but it usually assumes the form of something either terrible or good, to permit it to be perceived by a person.

However, even if a keris does have isi, no matter how powerful that isi may be, it will not necessarily affect everybody. If a person has sufficient spiritual or mystical strength of the right type, isi will not affect that person. Isi should never have any effect upon an Mpu, a pandai keris, a mranggi, or a devout person. Isi can affect a person who is weak, or who is incomplete. Such a person can sometimes gain the strength to resist isi by meditation, fasting, and prayer.

So, here we have the difference between the two mystical elements that can exist in a keris.

There is the tuah, that is purposely brought into the blade by the Mpu who made it, and the tuah is fixed in place by the power of the yoni.

Then there is the isi, which is not brought into the blade by the Mpu, and is not fixed in place by the yoni.

The tuah is invariably positive, but requires the keris to be matched to the right custodian, and that custodian must believe that the tuah is present and active on his behalf.

The isi is a natural, or an accidental or an intentional placement of a mystical power into the keris.

The isi is not necessarily a positive force, but can also be distinctly evil, it is not selective in its effects but can affect anybody lacking the spiritual power to resist it.

Tuah can exist in any keris that has been made correctly to incorporate this talismanic power, however the yoni can only exist in a keris that has been made by an Mpu to contain tuah, and the power of this tuah is fixed by the yoni.

Isi can exist in any keris.


Kai, in light of the above, I feel that perhaps you may already have the answer to your question, however, if it is not yet clear, please let me proceed.

The keris as a whole is a personality. It may or may not contain tuah, and it may or may not contain isi. But the keris is only a personality if it is believed to be so by the custodian.

If the custodian is correctly matched to the keris, and believes that the tuah is active on his behalf, every action he takes involving that keris will be a positive action from the perspective of the keris, and the tuah will remain with the keris and with the custodian of the keris as long as it is believed in.

However, isi is not so controllable, nor predictable. Isi may or may not like the heat of a candle flame. But isi may or may not like a million other things as well, and there is no way to know what that isi may find objectionable or pleasant except by the practice of tayuh, or mystical divination, usually through dreaming.

However, if we disturb the isi, we may find out too late that something we did caused that isi to become a little uncomfortable.Then we may have to pay.


In the whole of this element of the belief system there is also the human element.

If the custodian of the keris believes in tuah it is real, but selective.

If the custodian of the keris believes in isi, it is real, but non-selective.


Where the custodian of a keris has some doubt about his spiritual ability to resist the force of a possible isi, then he is well advised to entrust any work to be done on his keris to a person who does possess this spiritual ability. This is the role of the mranggi.



All of the above is as I have been taught, and is only a repetition of those teachings.

Nothing here necessarily represents my personal opinions.

That is interesting, especially concerning our conversations about the weather here of late, Alan .

Henk,

It is the Jejeran that is exposed to the boiled water. Compare that with direct flame to the blade????

and Alan is right, the discussion about digdaya or yoni or anything about keris spiritualism should be done in personal manner. Or if anyone wish to continue the discussion, please feel free to create another thread. I agree to to most of Alan posts re mysticism, the meaning of yoni, but beg to differ about digdaya. I will not continue the discussion here, nor open another thread on keris spiritualism, but I promise whenever possible I will give my comments accordingly if anyone starts the thread.

Thank you, it has been enlightening experience here in this thread.

Thank you Alan for clearing up this terminology in a clear and concise manner. This has been a very informative thread indeed. :)