Hello Pak Ganja,

You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

Regards,
Kai

Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

I rest my case.

The blade is made of iron and steel and possibly nickel or other contrasting material. Only the steel is affected by heat treatment to harden during manufacture, and most blades are not hardened closer to the gonjo than about 6 or 7 cm. at most; often it is only the first few centis that are hardened, since the application of heat to remove a hilt is restricted to the sorsoran, the part of the blade that gets hot has not been hardened, which means that nothing short of red heat will affect that part of the blade --- of course, if you took it to red heat, the hardness further down the blade would be drawn because it would go into blue/yellow or higher, if it went higher than blue/yellow you would lose the hardness.

The way I work is to hold the hilt in one hand and the bare blade about 12 centis from the gonjo with the other hand. When the blade gets uncomfortably hot I take it away from the heat for a couple of minutes, then return it when it is cooler.

Working like this I can control the heat 100% and at the same time I can feel if the hilt itself is getting too hot, bear in mind that my hand is shielding the hilt from direct heat, any heat I can feel in the hilt is coming from the pesi.

When at home I use a propane torch with a relatively bushy flame that I hold in a vice and I pass the blade backwards and forth across the flame and alternate the sides, I can usually get 99% of hilts off in a few minutes, the very, very few that are stubborn get the heat/cool/heat/cool treatment over a number of days until they surrender.

When I'm in Solo I use either a little kerrosene lamp or a candle and play the flame directly and steadily onto the blade, when it comes time to try to separate blade and hilt I use an old bit of rag to grip the blade.

Using the lamp or the candle it is totally impossible to get the blade hot enough to do it any damage at all.

Using the propane torch it would be very easy for an inexperienced person to draw the blade hardness.

My concerns with hair dryers, ovens, boiling water , mirrors reflecting the sun's rays, geothermal heat, room heaters, etc, etc, etc is not that they will harm the blade material, but that because the heat cannot be localised and directed to a sufficiently small area, that heat will inevitably heat the hilt, and it will cause damage to some degree.

In respect of wood used for keris hilts.

It is recognised that it is not good for any wood to be exposed to direct sunlight, as the heat can cause cracking.However, the one wood which must never be exposed to heat or sunlight is tayuman. Another wood that is very susceptable to heat and moisture change is burl teak ( jati gembol). This wood moves and cracks can open up in it because of the movement.

Really, its just common sense:- nobody would consider for a moment that it was OK to place a piece of antique furniture in direct sunlight. Do this on a hot day and you could come back to something where all the joints had loosened and cracks had opened in the polished surfaces --- you might get away with it a couple times, but sooner or later you'll ruin something. So you just don't take the risk. No different with the wood used for keris dress. The caution should not be limited to only antique dress:- make a few enquiries of modern custom knifemakers and see how many will gaurantee natural materials in hilts and scabbards against cracking or distortion.

I'm not a conservator, but I extremely horrified by what you have done! :shrug:

Though 120 degrees will do no damage to the blade, spare a thought for the hilt, for it is also an integral part of a complete keris. A good old hilt is a record of the carving skills and aesthetics of a period past. Destroying it is like burning books.

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

Dear Alan,
Yes, I knew the risk but carefully analyzed it beforehand and took my chance, I will elaborate more about it, thank you for the detailed description of your procedure and I will try it next time.
Best regards
Jean

Hello BluErf,
I am not a conservator nor a conservative person myself but I take the full responsibility of what I have done and I will try to explain why:
Let me first say that the 2 hilts in question (pictures 6.1 and 6.3 in my hilt book) are extremely precious to me and that I did not make this experiment before a careful risk analysis. Hilt # 6.1 is made from hippo ivory and 6.3 from dugong ivory I think and both of them have a particularly dense and homogenous structure with virtually no cracks.
Ivory is considered as an organic material but actually it is mostly inorganic, containing about 55% of calcium and some magnesium phosphate, the rest bein collagen material. This is obviously a very positive factor regarding the heat resistance of the material (I looked for some info on Internet about the heat resistance of ivory but did not find anything).
I took full advantage of the failed steaming experience performed by Pak Ganja to draw 2 conclusions:
1. Ivory is not affected by exposure to a temperature of 100 °C in fully humid conditions (humidity is considered as very harmful for ivory).
2. A temperature of 100 °C (or may be a little less) is not sufficient to soften the gluing resin around the peksi hole.
My conclusion is that for softening the resin, you need to heat the peksi and peksi hole (i.e the inside of the hilt) to a temperature above 100°C.
As my previous experiences with a candle failed due to insufficient heat flux or lack of patience and I have no kerosene lamp or equivalent, I decided to heat the whole blade into the oven set on hot air circulation and heated progressively for avoiding temperature peaks and thermal stresses on the hilt.
As compared to the traditional heating method with a flame, the main difference is that the hilt is also subject to the same temperature as the blade, i.e. 120°c maximum, but as I said and from my grinded teeth experience at the dentist, I felt confident that the ivory hilt could safely withstand it without damage. A positive factor of the oven procedure in my opinion is that there is no thermal gradient across the hilt as with a flame (120°C at the peksi hole or inside of the hilt and ambient on the outside as ivory is a highly insulating material).
To date I guarantee you that there not the slightest sign of damage or decay to the hilts, but if anyting wrong appears in future I will advise the forum accordingly and apologize for my mistake (no progress is made without daring break the tradition).
Still extremely horrified? :eek:
Best regards
Jean

Yep.

IMHO, Palembang style was much influenced to javanese style. We could still see until now, many old Palembang blades are sometimes quite similar to javanese blades. A ganjawulung fixed to a blade, is quite common in Java. And I think it could be common to Palembang style too.

(Images below, the more complete picture of my Palembang keris, with another silver pendokok...)

GANJAWULUNG

And another close up of the hilt and the silver pendokok...

GANJAWULUNG

Another Palembang Keris
 

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Pak Ganjawulung,

IMHO, Cirebonese hilts are the most flexible. It can match any Javanese blade and Wrangka, or Malay blade and sarung..... even Buginese's.

Yes, Penangsang,

Agree. If you have a Segaluh keris -- with the specific protruding gandhik with sekar kacang -- it is difficult to get a match pairing with javanese (solonese, or jogjanese) hilt. But almost certain, will match with Cirebon hilt. Especially the "buta" hilt...

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Pak Ganjawulung,

can you show us a closeup view from the hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

Cirebon Hilt (close up)
 

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

Thank you, very fine and dilly carved hilt and doesn't disturb the overall impression of the ensemble even it is from Cirebon.

Hi all,
Hoping this thread may find some new activity as it touches on carving styles of the Lampung region. I acquired what I believe to be a late 18th century south Sumatran war canoe prow some time ago and have had some degree of trouble confirming its place of manufacture. After stumbling across this thread and references to hilts of the Lampung region in Gaspard de Narval’s ‘Ukiran’, the stylistic similarities between the prow and the Jawa Demam hilts of Lampung are the closest I have yet identified. To me, the spiral eyes and wing motif are the most similar stylistic traits to that seen on the Lampung hilts, though this may be way off the mark.The shortage of texts on Lampung carving styles/motifs has left me a little frustrated, so I was hoping for any and all suggestions or thoughts on the prow, including suggested reading.

Any thoughts on tribal origin, motif (Garuda?), symbolism, type of timber (Teak?), or age, would be greatly appreciated. Some incised decoration depicting a bull/buffalo, centipede and possibly a scorpion appear on the neck of the prow (unsure of their symbolic meaning).
Many thanks,

Unk

[IMG]www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721025/[/IMG]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721071/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721133/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721191/

Oh, i see you already saw this thread. :o
I believe most of these hilts are either Palembang or Cirebon, not Lampung.
As for you attachments, they need to be added directly to this site via our Manage Attachments button. Thanks... :)

^^^
This .
We need pictures for the archive; not links . :)

Links die and then the thread becomes useless . :(

More display
 

More on Palembang hulu and keris...

Hello Ganjawulung,

very nice handles and blades! :) Are the pendokos on the left and right old or new ones?

Best regards,

Detlef

Old ones, dear Detlef. I hope you could see the different yellow of those golds. Not dark yellow, but light yellow... Later I would post the close ups.

Thks
GANJAWULUNG

Palembang Pendokok
 

Close ups of the Palembang pendokoks, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

Palembang Hilt and Sheath....
 

Dear Klungkung,

Just to remind again, that we had a long discussion about Palembang keris in this warung in the past. Just to complete the discussion of the topics raised by our pal, Klungkung ....

Ganjawulung

Dear all,

Shocking pics about a damaged DURGA handle (never saw a similar with carvings, only the 'bare' ones !) after I tried to free it from the peksi with the heating method but I new I could not avoid it as the handle already had a severe lengthwise crack. After it got off I saw it was once repaired already with glue and 1 single nail!
I restored it the best I could with wood putty. The blade shipped to Java for cleaning as it has promising pamor.

Lampung hilt....
 

Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung

Is there a consensus that this type of "Durga" hilts specifically originates from Lampung and not Bengkulu or Palembang?
Regards :)

Lampung or Bengkulu?
 

Dear Jean,

Among local people in Sumatra -- especially the Southern part of Sumatra -- there is no mention of such keris hilt as "durga hilt". You may traced yourself this fact there. It seems, the keris term of "durga hilt" comes from the West, from the author of articles and books on keris, Martin Kerner.

Among the keris people in Sumatra, whether it's in Palembang or other parts of southern Sumatra, they call this type of keris hilt as "putri malu" (shy princess). Is there a consensus, to refer to this type of Lampung hilt? Maybe so. Although there is also a kind of "putri malu" (with different body shape, a bit more twisted), known also as the keris hilt from Lahat, which borders the region of Bengkulu in the south western coast.

Clearly, if you look through the history of Sumatra, the most southern region of Sumatra's Lampung (old name in ancient times, Kedaton) is never separated from Palembang long history, and the history of the legendary kingdom of Sriwijaya. Traces of Sriwijaya was still being tracked.

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,
Thanks for your reply. Other Western authors such as Karsten S. Jensen also attribute this type of hilt to Durga but he refers to Martin Kerner indeed (see book Keris-Griffe/ Museum Rietberg Zurich page 60).
Vanna Ghiringhelli attributes the origin of this hilt to Bengkulu but there may be various types indeed. Anyway let us adopt the name putri malu which seems more adequate!
Best regards :)

Beautiful putri malu hilt, thank you for sharing Pak Ganja!

Putri Malu
 

Dear Jean and Sajen,

Yes, I also happened to ask this at friends in a facebook group, Sumatra group on keris and tosan aji. Friends of Palembang and Lampung, both confirmed this kind of hilt as "putri malu". And I happened to know any better, a native who is preparing a book on Lampung keris. He also confirmed this name of hilt as "putri malu"...

This specimen below, is according to him Lahat style of "putri malu". More "twisted" and has a specific form of "triangular" face. That's Lahat to him. (He was born in Lampung, and still finishing his book on Lampung Keris. Hopefully in the near future....)

I was very interested to see references to a forthcoming book on Lampung keris. Could you give us the author's name, and the title of the book, so that we can look out for it when it is published, please? Presumably it will be announced on the forum when it appears? I look forward to seeing it.

Lampung native
 

Dear Loedjoe,

I do not dare to say it now. To be sure, he focused his attention to researching the Sumatran keris, Palembang and mainly Lampung keris. Some times we discussed on Sumatran traditional weapon that is not less interesting, namely "Sumatran badik". Unfortunately, some beautiful specimens of Sumatran badiks can not be published in this special keris forum....

(Loedjoe, your name reminds me of a very peculiar name of the original sword of Aceh. A peculiar sword that has a very macho appearance, referred to locally as "loedjoe alang" or Luju Alang. Could see the distinctive shape of its hilt made of buffalo horn, which model is very typical. Aceh, is not only known for its rencong. However Aceh is also known of its sword, especially "Luju Alang". You may find the illustration of Luju Alang in "Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago" by Albert G van Zonneveld)

Dear Pak Ganja,

I also have an interest in this region, about which not so many information is available. So I found your last sentence very interesting; do you meen, there are languages of indigene groups, which do not belong to Malayo-Polynesian branch?

Could you please tell in short about these languages?

Regards,
Gustav

Lampung language
 

Dear Gustav,

Unfortunately, I am not a linguist, Gustav. However, according to my Lampung origin friend, his research on keris also reach to local sources with KaGaNga texts. He also mentions, genesis original Lampung language spoken by "Ulun Lampung" ​​(indigenous Lampung peope), associated to Skalabrak ....

Ganjawulung

Dear Pak Ganja,

thank you for taking your time to answer.

Regards,
Gustav

Pak Ganja,
Very nice hilt indeed! Can you please show us the blade and warangka for reference?
Thanks and regards :)

Palembang Patrem
 

Dear Gustav and Jean,

Thank you Gustav, to remind my old post. At that time I was still searching for the name of that "Batman-like" hilt. Lately I just know, that people in Southern Sumatra used to call it "Putri Malu" (Shy Princess).

Jean, as in-reposting by Gustav, such that the appearance of my Palembang patrem (my Lampung friend even said it as "lampung patrem"), measuring only 20 cm.

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja and Gustav,
Thanks for the clearer pic. The blade is very rustic (no pamor, simple shape, ganja iras) as compared to the typical blades from the area. Also the sampir has a different and less elegant shape than the Palembang ones ("rudder" and notch at the back especially).
To my knowledge the standard krisses from Lampung are quite similar to the Palembang ones except the hilt, so are these features specific to one area in Lampung or these krisses made for specific persons? I have another kris patrem (blade 22 cm long) from South Sumatra with a putri malu hilt also but the blade is rather in bahari style.
Best regards

Keris Minang dan Jambi
 

Dear Jean,

I was deliberately not too clean my "Lampung/Palembang" patrem. Because, according to friends - usually a much sought Sumatran keris, was made of pamorless iron. Lucky even if it turns out to be "malela iron", a favorite for this type of Sumatran keris. Keris Panjang of Jambi, for example, it is rare with pamor. Its blade, generally made of greenish gray iron. Also Anak Alang type, which are shorter in size.

Sumatran keris that you show to me, it's a nice keris to me. From the shape of its greneng, seems typical Minang keris. It has slightly different greneng (Sorry, to use the Javanes term, I forgot the Sumatran term....) if you compare with those of Riau, or Jambi kerises. I have an example, the blades of Riau, or Jambi. Note the difference in 'greneng' part....

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,
I find your kris very nice, especially the carved JD hilt.
Ouch, a Minang blade with South Sumatra dress?
Thanks and regards