Uh.... no. Not really. Nothing really worth going out of your way just for the weapons themselves. To be sincere, Barcelona has a lot of unique and wonderful places to visit, including a lot of excellent museums. My reccomendation is that you enjoy your visit and wait to go elsewhere (Madrid, for example) to see remarkable arms and armour collections (specially european).

On the other hand, aside from the most usual touristic routes, if you happen to have some spare time, you might want to try the Ethnological Museum or even the the Maritime Museum , out of curiosity, if you like the subject (a 1:1 scale reproduction of a 16th c. galley, anyone? :) ).

Another example with interesting inscriptions in Spanish ended on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

On one side the inscription is "Para Los Valientes ____enos", as opposed to "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos" on one of mine. On the other is what looks like a regimental marking - can someone read and decipher it? If this sword can be ascribed to a military unit, then that would likely provide a conclusive answer on who used these interesting swords. In any case, the Berber attribution seems more and more unlikely.

I am attaching some pictures from the auction.

Regards,
Teodor

I have seen another sword like this, with the words Para Los valientes Cibaenos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cibao
and on the other II HYD VT IA PTO PLATA. This is the link, with this PC I can,t copy the pictures, sorry.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEDWX%3AIT
best regards
carlos

In an effort to bring yet another angle to the origin discussion of these swords, I am posting a comparison between the file work on the back of the tang on one of my "Berber" swords, and the hilt of an Albacete dagger, taken by Marcus back in 2006 while the Barcelona Military Museum still existed. The motif is similar.

Regards,
Teodor

Thank you for posting that Teodor! another intriguing element that compels the Spanish colonial aspects of these swords, though suggesting thier origins may indeed have been in Spains colonies in the Maghreb before diffusion abroad.
While in discussions of earlier years I had also considered the absence of these sabres in Charles Buttin's works. I am wondering if perhaps because they seem to have been situated in regions farther west from the French areas he was of course in, maybe he did not encounter these and they were not enough in presence by then to have been largely noticeable. I would presume that by the time of his residency in Morocco these would have already become diffused to the west.
The fact that these sabres seem to be almost invariably identified in groupings in Latin America and other Spanish ports of call does not necessarily mean that thier origins could not have indeed been in Moroccan regions, the Tirri references being the instance supporting this.

Jim,

How reliable is Tirri as a reference? I am sure he is correct about many attributions, but then, according to his book, we should still be looking for the laz bicagi in Egypt. We have to be careful not to propagate false information.

Regards,
Teodor

Teodor you know you and I are very much on the same page regarding the Tirri 'references', and who can forget the BSY drama! :) However as with most of these kinds of books, subsequent research and findings can often either further refute or sometimes support entries . In the case of these sabres I personally have not held to Tirri's classification, but as with many cases there is a wide scope of qualification and things can often be in gray areas.
Overall the larger balance of his attributions are reliable, and very much so considering those who consulted in preparation of the book, however it seems the major problem is the lack of cited references and sources.

I definitely agree, that we as students of arms history should not propogate false information, but continue research to properly balance information at hand. If these are indeed with the origins in Morocco then we need to properly acknowledge that with new findings, but frankly at this point the jury is still out.
Conversely, with the Laz Bicagi case, a classic example of revision, reminding us to recheck data used from many of the references we consult. I once read "...the thing I like most about history, is how its always changing!".
:)

All the best,
JIm

Can't find my copy of Spring's book on african weapons.
But the scabbard of the "berber" one has the same protrusion at the end as the ethiopian ones. Yes, Berbers are not Ethiopians, but heck of a lot closer to them geographically than the Brazilians:-)

That was something that I noticed as well when I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in the early 1990s, and could not figure out why those examples shown in Spring as Ethiopian had the same type protrusions. I think that discussions some years ago also suggested that the 'thum' type extension on khanjhar scabbards and from Algerian regions some of the koummya scabbards was considered possible in influence.

Again, aside from Spring, other references on Ethiopian edged weapons do not include these type sabres, and as far as I know most of the varying shotel scabbards (excluding Spring) do not have these protrusions.

The pic I showed is not from Spring. BTW, I found my copy of Spring:-) and can photo the examples from it for general reference.
These protrusions may be infrequent on the Ethiopian scabbards, but they do exist. I know of no other examples of weapons that share such a feature. We cannot ignore it as a potential evidence of the "berber" sabres belonging to Africa rather than S. America

Thanks, I knew this example was not from Spring, and it is really an interesting anomaly as far as I can see. I had not seen swords with the S guard in this context. It would be great to have the examples from Spring shown here to illustrate what we're discussing for the readers.

I agree that these factors are pressing for a North African presence of these distinctly hilted and scabbarded sabres. Another sword discussion which may have some oblique bearing on this conundrum does recall another item in the Tirri reference which had disputed provenance, the so called 'Zanzibar sword'. This is the baselard (H shape hilt) form smallsword which was identified as a 'Zanzibar' sword in Burton (1884). I found that this exact and apparant misidentification was lifted directly from Demmin (1877) right down to the line drawing, and subsequently found that Buttin (1933) had classified these as Moroccan s'boula. In his footnotes he cites the Burton/Demmin 'error' .

What was most interesting was that Tirri had an example of one of these exact swords with Amharic inscription and I found an example of one of these among Ethiopian weapons in "Weapons of Africa" (Lindert, 1964) a small pamphlet.

These elements suggest the strong ties via trade route networking which existed transcontinentally, and pronounced presence of Moroccan weapons as far as Zanzibar, which would of course include Berber forms in cases. These networks included of course routes through Ethiopian points, and may explain the presence of s'boula in Zanzibar and Ethiopia...as well as conversely these scabbards with distinct vertical protrusion (resembling the Arab influence suggested) being in Ethiopian and Berber contexts.

I would point out as I have throught the years the interesting case of the Manding sabres which have cylindrical hilts compellingly similar to the Omani kattara, yet they occur in distant Saharan context far from Omani contact...except through possible trade presence from Zanzibar, which was of course an Omani Sultanate as well as powerful trade entrepot. Of further note is again the scabbards, which carry the flared tip characteristic of the kaskara, and revealing probable diffusion westward in these trade routes.

While these notes are concerning other sword forms, they seem pertinant to the study of these Berber sabres and thier likely origins and development, which seems to favor North African Berber regions at this point.
As I have once again brought Buttin into the discussion, it seems a bit contrary to suggest that these sabres cannot have been among Moroccan weapons as they do not appear in Buttin...while noting that the 'Zanzibar' swords are in fact Moroccan because they DO appear in his reference.

It is clear that more support is needed for those weapons' origin as well as continuing viable research on the 'Berber' sabres. As Teodor has well noted, many misperceptions have been perpetuated with the use of material from earlier references without further study and evidence. I think that is why we are here:).

Here they are: Ethiopian Gurades from Spring's book.
Do they remind us of something? :-)

I would venture to say that scabbards ( at least in this case) are more important determinants: blades traveled, scabbards were locally made and reflected local traditions.
My vote for North Africa.

The protrusion is indeed quite similar. There are other swords with scabbard protrusions, like for example Taiwanese aboriginal knives, but those scabbards tend to be wood, not leather. The tips on Ethiopian gurades bear the closest resemblance to the tips on Berber cutlasses.

I am not sure we can settle attributions by a matter of voting :) . Personally, I do not even know how to vote, as I can see the following possibilities:

1. A North African sword from areas close to the Spanish colonial holdings: North Morocco or Spanish Sahara (or Spanish Guinea?). The Spanish mottos can be explained as a result of no alternative sources of blades. We know that colonial powers tried to limit access to weapons for the local population in controlled and neighboring areas, or it may simply be a matter of restricting trade to merchants and goods from the respective Metropole. If that hypothesis is true, it may explain why we see almost exclusively Spanish blades on these swords, and mostly French blades on Mandingo sabers, in areas not too far.

2. A Caribbean weapon, which combines features from the diverse demographic composition of the Spanish colonies in Central America. By the 19th century, the population in the Spanish part of Hispaniola was of mixed Spanish, African and Amerindian descent. This may explain why the inscriptions refer to this particular island, while the decoration, which varies from simple geometric patterns to complex floral designs, is so eclectic.

3. A private purchase, non-standard issue weapon of Spanish officers and/or soldiers or sailors, who saw service in various parts of the Empire.

I am sure others may come up with further possibilities. In the end, I am afraid we will need photographic evidence to resolve the mystery conclusively, assuming of course that the use of these cutlasses does not predate photography.

Regards,
Teodor

Excellent points, Teodor.

I, myself, wasn't trying to imply that the Berber sabers were of Brazilian or Spanish origin. It was just a question of who influenced whom. I agree that the blades don't define the piece, as all areas discussed had trade blades present. I have no doubt the scabbard on the Berbers come from that region, or at least from the African northern provinces stretching to Morocco.

The question for me remains with the hilt. We see Brazilian and Cuban swords with these distinct and fascinating shapes that are so similar to the ninchas and saifs. All the pieces discussed frequently have the same types of inlay concentric circles and wavy lines. The time periods when we start seeing Berber sabers, Brazilian cutlass and the Cuban examples with the odd hilts all seem to be post 1800. I'm just still trying to make a connection, but perhaps am seeing more than is really there? :shrug: The Brazilian cutlass hilt resemble a throw-back to the old Houndslow swords of the 17th century and look nothing like the hilts on other espada ancha. The mystery continues...

I was fortunate enough to visit Madrid this week and just yesterday took the train to Toledo, where the Spanish National Military History Museum is now located. Among all the exhibits there is a single sword of the type discussed in this thread, identified as originating from the Dominican Republic from the mid 19th century.

This is just the latest in a series of evidence, all pointing to the Dominican Republic. Museums are known to make mistakes, but my impression from the Museo del Ejercito was that the items there were for the most part very accurately researched and identified. There were displays to the wars fought in Morocco both in Toledo and in the Museo Naval in Madrid, and neither contained these machetes, but contained the typical Maghrebi saifs and muskets instead, along with koumayas and flyssas.

Personally, I am now of the opinion that these short sabres or machetes are entirely Dominican in origin, and any occurence in a North African context may have been purely incidental.

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

Berber Mexican connection?
 

I just noticed a mention on the third page of Faganarms,Inc. Spring 2014 catalog a Berber Back sword listed with the mention that the Kabyle Berbers fought for the French in Mexico in the 1850s. Perhaps, this is partially how and why they were connected. Steve

Espadas Anchas de Brazil y Berber
 

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-)))

Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel.

Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-)

Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara?

Andy, when did you talk with Pierce??

Pierce Chamberlain
 

I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history.
I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean.
Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection?

Andy Masich

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

Turkey Guards on Espadas
 

This is a brilliant supposition! Surely you are correct--the guards all have two rows of "eyes" neatly arranged within the fan-like striations. Others, including me, who saw peacocks were all "fowled up." I'm going to start looking at Yucatan native and folk traditions.
Andy Masich
PS It makes me wonder if any of these guards may have been painted when new--can you imagine staring down a blade with all those eyes looking back at you?
PPS These turkeys in my backyard inspired me to write the peacock post in this thread in the first place--I didn't realize that these birds (or their Yucatan cousins) might have actually been the original inspiration for these sword guards.

Espadas: Berbers to Brazilians to Mexicans
 

I may be going off half "cocked" on a wild turkey chase, but if this hypothesis is correct, it could be historically significant. The ocellated turkey lives only in a 130,000 km2 (50,000 sq mi) range in the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico—which includes all or part the states of Quintana Roo, Campeche, Yucatán, Tabasco, and Chiapas—as well as the northern parts of Belize and Guatemala. This may have been the point of origin for this guard design. The grip my have North African roots with a Spanish connection to the New World. It's also still possible that the Portuguese brought the form with captive Africans to Brazil and the general sword form may have spread from there northward to Central America, where the shell guard morphed into the turkey form seen on the guards posted.
It interesting that the Spanish were impressed with the ocellated turkeys that the natives had domesticated for their feathers for nearly 1,000 years and, later, for meat. So taken with the birds, the conquistadores exported breeding pairs back to Europe.

Andy Masich

It would be nice to think a piece of this puzzle is close to solved, but the answer may be for awhile "it's complicated".
The Caribbean that produced these was a rich mix indeed. I guess it is time to look at the picture collections again and hope to see a turkeys wattle or snood ;)

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!! :)

Salaams All, I find it most compelling with the attribution of Peacock feather decoration in the hilt....The note that Kabyl Berber involvement in Mexico is further fascinating.. and overall that the sword ( possibly derived from Iberian style) and its derivatives sketch a web of involvement wrapped around Spanish global activity from the Manila Galleons and grasping at Zanzibar and Moroccan/Algerian styles. The fact that Spanish ships also entered and exited the Indian Ocean via the Cape of Good Hope as well as via the Atlantic Acapulco Filipies run shows how diverse the designs of regional styles became... not to mention a similar sword on the waist of a captain of the Trained Bands of London pictured in Islamic arms and Armour by the late Antony North. (Tobias Blose; Captain.)

This is a very revealing thread !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Agree, it's nice to see this thread resurface.

What has always puzzled me is the purpose of re-profiling the point of some of these blades into a sort of clipper ship bow shape. :confused:
What would be the function of this configuration?

Maybe I missed that from the previous posts. :o

This is a good question which appears to have the answer built around its apparent ability at cutting ships ropes...whilst retaining some degree of thrust ability by retaining the stiffened tip... a lethal combination. What is also puzzling is that the hilt seems to have migrated across many trade routes...Spanish?... but the blade changes...in some cases long despite its misnomer Nimcha (half blade in Baluch)...in some cases short but in no cases to my knowledge do we see this clipped bow shape tip in the Indian Ocean styles...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your remarks ... This must be a sword type with the widest and most diverse of all the swords ... I note the -potential Iberian link in this weapon and how it has morphed across the globe following centuries of Spanish trade, exploration and war. I note with interest how a peacock design could well be responsible for the cruder form shown in South American types from earlier Spanish form as you note..and discovered an even more compelling design on Espadas Ropera...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All, With a number of threads with related themes I have chosen this one as the more focussed on the subject of these weapons to launch a querry on the links between form...between Moroccan and Zanzibari and indeed between the style that sems to have developed in the Americas particularly around the Caribbean carried there by war and trade not least between Spain and the Philipines via Accupulco etc...
My first observation is combined with a quite early time scale... That of the trained bands of London; ...A sword on the waist of Captain Tobias Blosse in the mid 1600 s clearly of the hilt style Moroccan. Showing also a photo of the Moroccan Style. Both pictures from the late Antony Norths "Islamic Arms and Armour"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All..I have a few pictures to add ...Mahomet Abogli Moroccan ambassador to King George in 1725...with the traditional Moroccan Sword... and a court painting illustrating similar weapons in the period..I post here for interest the Butin chart of the Zanzibar region ...

So what, how, why, when, was the linkup??

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

First of all an apology, the pic I submitted as a Yucatan ocellated turkey is a photoshop of a North American turkey, the real ocellated turkey still has a appearance that could influence these shell guards (see pic below) but I should have been more diligent in my research. I have sent Andy a PM since he seems interested on the subject.

Now the good news, I found a "Berber sword" at the local gunshow, the sheath is as good as you will find with the stitching tight, no splits in the leather and some decorative dye remaining. The blade is like many of these, a re-purposed wide fullered blade with a cusped tip. the point is more extreme than any I have seen. It seems rather fragile.

The handle is held together with copper rivets and heavily decorated with brass, some unidentifiable gray metal and two pieces that look like German silver. The gray metal looks like epoxy or plastic but I scratched a small area with a pinpoint and it is silvery metal underneath.

There are the initials BF as well as what looks like a B on the other side. One of the Berber sabers on the sold section of Artzi's website has a set of initials similarly placed (JR) which brings up the likelihood of Roman letters being used on the handle of a north African sword.

I find the difference between the measured and calm decoration of the scabbard and the crazy hodge-podge of the handle striking, I wonder if these were owner modified.

More pics

Congratulation your sword is absolutly gorgeous!!

I read a lot of pages on this forum on the so-called Berber swords, Spanish and Central America...
I think the Berber swords are Berbers point.
The similarity with Spanish colonial swords is obvious, the Western Sahara was a Spanish colonial territory.
Your sword is likely from this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara

About the Roman letters, they are not incommon in North Africa and countries colonized by Europeans. I have seen a lot on Algerian Moukhala. They were all from the very late 19th c. or early 20th c.
I will place your sword in this range, even if the blade is maybe earlier.

Best,
Kubur

Rick......I think we're goin' SHAVER KOOL on this one!!!!

Seriously, it is wonderful to see these amazing threads stay alive, and constantly updated with new examples and information!!!

Machinist, thank you so much for staying with the research, and please keep us apprised of Andy's responses on this topic......those curious hilts most definitely deserve continued research.

This example you just got is a beauty! and I agree with Kubur, the nature of the decoration surely does suggest Moroccan character.

What is most curious on these 'Berber' sabres is that they are actually machete type swords which seem to be from Central American regions. The preponderance of examples characteristically are from Spanish colonial areas, often in tropical Mexico, as well as Cuba, Central America, and perhaps parts of South America (though not aware yet of actual provenance or examples).
As Tirri has noted, many of these ended up in Spanish colonies in the early 20th century during insurgences and other dynamic events. This is probably how we have arrived at the 'Berber' sabre appellation.

One feature often present on these, as well as the shell guard examples is the almost common presence of British blades on them, most often of the M1796 light cavalry pattern, and reprofiled on the 'Berber' types.

Salaams Jim, As noted previously; It is curious how there are linkages on these weapons to the Turkey...in the hilt and it seems to me in the curved at right angles, base of the scabbard... Is that not a beak? In addition I note (.) What could be a moon with dot between motif seen on many hilts of this type perhaps taken from the Turkey plumage? see #64

Regarding the Hilt, Is this the original Nimcha hilt or did the Nimcha hilt predate this?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

What is the relationship in the 90 degree bend in the scabbard to Ethiopian style? at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21715 :shrug: