Hi Frank,

Just where should we go? :) I am not intending to debate the reason Polish swords were termed such. It is just an old tired discussion to me. Nor am I excusing Neumann and others regarding straight sabres. It is simply information I would be repeating myself again and again, hence leaving it as a link.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am truly not one to worry about it a great deal

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

OK, I think I have taxed my limited ability to comprehend linguistics beyond the limit :) Regardless of whatever reasons there have been for calling a sword one thing or another, and whether it falls correctly into the perameters of the languages noted, it sort of is what it is.

We know the 'katar' daggers of India were inadvertantly labeled such in an error of early arms writers, and should be called 'jemadhar'. But after the term has become formly emplaced in arms literature for over a century, it seems moot to try to correct what is colloquially established.

This discussion of the term spadroon has been enlightening and fascinating, but I'm all for learning more on the forms of these 'swords' and the variations of examples from England, to the U.S. and France.
Glen, BTW, thank you for the fantastic 'harvesting' !! and showing all the great examples.

I think it would be a great idea for a thread, or perhaps number of threads, to discuss for example a glossary of sword terms, with each example having some of the etymology and colloquial possibilities. I know there are many terms with considerable debate that has ensued through the years, for example pas' d' ane ; fuller/ channel/ blood gutter etc. .
Not here, but on another thread. I am incredibly impressed with the knowledge on linguistics and etymology seen here!!! so it would seem we are well versed enough to archive a great thread on these.

Meanwhile, back to the 'spadroons' (aka straight blade swords).


All very best regards,
Jim

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno
;)

Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

Goes to Google results for :

' szabla word origin to cut ' :)

Swords of the Masonic Orders
 

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

Well noted Glen! Another thread in 'death throes' with the discussion of the meaning of the word sabre? What a shock! LOL! :) I wish I could count the number of such discussions over the years, and the inevitably unresolved muddle that was typically left. ....also try the 'origins' of the sabre for really hot debates.

I somewhat understand the note by Frank on links, the daily barrage of spam around has truly gotten people paranoid.....just a knee jerk thing. However the staff here work incredibly hard at keeping this flak under control....and the right level of kevlar around the forum. ..old habits die hard though.

It really is amazing some stuff that comes up in searches ......the Wiki link was interesting, and I did click on it, though admit I felt a little of the same apprehension as it is against my grain....I only did it cuz I know you Glen :)
Maybe a few words on what the link is would be gooder :) trying to keep in line with the linguistics theme.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Loved the Mariachi analogy in the search on Mexican blades....gotta admit it is perfectly placed theme music!! But then there was my experience with hard rock, stiff drink and a tulwar.....uh, took out a ceiling fan..oops.

Hi Hotspur and Jim,

As I said, it's paranoia, not necessarily rational. Of course, one could consider that posting a description of the link is a politeness to the reader, who gets to decide whether it's worthwhile following the link or not.

As for debating the origin of saber...well, we could debate whether the short ones are knives or swords, just to make the argument really messy.


Best,

F

Thanks for the link, I am downloading now (dial-up). I admire researchers a good bit, yet tend to be quite contentious regarding speculations and hunches. I know I pursue my own a good bit of the time. Another had prompted me regarding some other Ames information and ended up looking at the perspective a good way back in the Ames family history. I will read it though, as something that will be on my bookshelf. Another article from MAA cued some more though about Ames in particular and as there are two seven ball examples I blame on Ames castings (or his supplier) Hamilton's notes are something I should be reviewing (along with adding his Ames book at some point). The thing is though that he seems a bit oblivious about the family history (in print anyway). Some of the Ames letters online are fascinating. Agreeably, a proponderance of American officers were MAsons, or affiliated with a good many participating with anumber of fraternities. I look forward to reading the article.

Wait, wait wait, it is about a twenty minute download for me but I will check it out.

Cheers

Hotspur; still twenty minutes, yarrrrrr

Ok Jeff, file duly noted.

First and correct me if I am wrong, there is a single cushion pommel seven beaded sword that happens to have Masonic iconography. We'll come back to that and perhaps merge or move it to a thread I initiated today regarding military swords used in fraternal society.

Secondly and while freely admiting to not being involved in Free Masonry, the article is thirty years old. While not dismissing such work, I have at times spent a good bit of browsing in the past decade reading about it. Here is a good site. Especially so for iconography. that is a nice chart in the Hamilton article though, a nice job with that.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masoni...ns_america.htm

Let me see if I can find some more I plumbed the depths and angles of such history.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

I can just about paraphrase the Hamilton article historical notes from the bookshelf I have there, simply in regarding notes about the Templars, Free Masons and development of fraternties both in England and somewhat worldwide (including American growth). South Carolina history is another interesting portal for such research.

Another older and goody from my bookmarks regarding guilds, craft and economic growth.
http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm

Getting back to beaded swords, I think not as associative as that single article example.

I do find the Hamilton artice quite useful to me in some aspects but not so much regarding what amounts to fraternal presentation swords. While interesting to in a different association of/to fraternities, what I find specifically of interest are some fairly plain swords that incorporate private purchase requests. Presentation swords are yet another category and as we all may agree that many military officers have been or are Free Masons, in the end, it's just a sword. I do not see that the number of beads are specifically engineered for Free Masons or even officer grades.

My feeling is that a continued discussion regarding fraternal swords, while quite parallel in this thread's interest, is a sidebar that might be better suited in a seperate thread than spadrone examples. Either that or I'm quite agreeable to attaching a mess o pictures of Shriners sabres, a dandy 1796 lc lodge sword and an exceptional British yeoman cavalry sabre with some really neat Scottish rite stuff engraved and gilded. Of those three I listed, it is just the Shriners sabres I would specifically assign to only fraternity. Some examples have been out there listed at dealers for some years (as of a few days ago, including a dandy skull and bones hilt for really short money.

Cheers

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards? ;) ;)

Hi Glen,

You are absolutely correct this article is hardly convincing that there is a definite link between the beads and the Masons. However it is definite that the hilt type was used on at least one occasion. I know absolutely nothing of the Mason organization, other then it liked secret symbols (even this I don't know for sure). Rather than show multiple examples of Known Mason swords with associated known symbols on them, do you have any examples of these known symbols on working military pieces? was it ever allowed? I don't mean added later to retired blades as Hamilton has cited.

All the Best
Jeff

Hi Jeff, I'll add some images in the other thread I began. I panicked in thinking I had lost that one on a drive. I hesitate to just link some dealer offerings still listed but that one yeoman cavalry sword sold some time ago.

Cheers

Hotppur; oddly. it was the Odd Fellows that first drew my curiousities

Please don't link to any items currently for sale . :)

Jeff, thank you so much for the kind words, and especially for the confidence in the observations and thoughts I often express. That really means a lot .

Glen, thank you for your open minded approach in examining and reopening thoughts open for consideration in this topic.

I have often discovered that the subject of symbolism in motif and decoration on swords is typically met with considerable difference of opinion and responses from indifference and skepticism to even outright hostility in thankfully few cases.

It has been many years since I first considered the possibility of Masonic symbolism in these swords, and as I recall, even in communication with Brian Robson, he discounted the idea, claiming that the five ball motif was likely an aesthetic selection.
In my research I found the 1963 article by W.E.May in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, and while he did not express the Masonic idea, he was intrigued by the motif, and noted that he hoped further research would ensue.
In years to follow, I began studying markings on blades, and discovered the talismanic and cabbalistic motif profoundly occurring on British and European military blades. It seems that the 18th century was highly charged with secret societies, fraternal groups, and occultism, which had carried the concept of superstition and talismanic properties imbued in weapons from the earlier 'Passau Art'.
Among the societies originating in the early 18th century was of course the Freemasons, which had membership not only in England and Scotland, but in France. This brotherhood had ties much deeper than politics or loyalty to a crown, and was nearly quintessant in its ancient symbolism and fealty.
In a time wrought with occultism, elitism in fashion and culture, and the search for cultural superiority, the gentry often sought romanticized gallantry in military appontment of rank.

As I have mentioned, the spadroon was introduced as a corresponding military counterpart to the gentlemans smallsword, and neoclassic fashion was clearly seen in the stylish hilt and classic style pommel. My mention of the use of the term 'spadroon' was simply to illustrate the Italian fencing term which might have alluded to the familiarity of these officers of gentry origins and such training. That they would have quite likely been members of Masonic lodges is also most likely, and the thought of the numeric five representing such allusion seems to me quite plausible.

I recently watched a documentary concerning Masonic symbolism and the possibilities associated with the symbolism found on the dollar bill. While certainly much of the material is quite contestible, there are a number of elements that are not only plausible, but compelling. Prior to the American Revolution, the forefathers of the country were not only British subjects, but many, including George Washington and more, were Masons. The French, who were profoundly allied in the Revolution, were also in many cases, of Masonic lodges.
It is interesting that this numeric ball motif found its way across the English Channel to France, as a model for a sword pattern, when France seldom was a follower in adopting weapon forms. It is further interesting that the pattern seems to have followed to the United States, in a time when strife between the U.S. and England remained in place despite strained diplomatic ties.
Perhaps more the result of fraternal solidarity ?

This is pretty much my presentation of my case, and whether or not it can be proven, I still think it is worthy of consideration. I very much believe that Masonic symbolism has long existed subtly in military tradition, and this, and other instances deserve further research.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

What I am unclear on entirely but don't ascribe to is that beaded hilts (of any number) originated in England. What I see in terms of browsing and cataloging these, along with the more recent fascination of seven vs five, or three vs one; it just doesn't add up to me as Masonic influence. the grandaddy five ball examples of those that I log looks more in line with continental origin. Albeit, someone else I have prodded mentions it as probably later than my impressions of it but does agree it is not English in its evolution.

Mark of Old Swords has an immense amount of data for Birmingham and had offered it on dvd but I have failed to follow up with him due to other things going on. if the evolution and connotation of the meaning evolved in England, comparisons of cutlers on either side would perhaps settle my thought of European influences and the evolution of beading.

A couple of more attachments here from some old auction pages referencing that naval counterguard on a french anglais pattern.

I did watch the very same documentary regarding Washington, the stars and the government's icons. Remarkably though is that Washington became a mason during the French and Indian War (from my understanding of his biographies) and that it was not a case of nepotism (of which some has been cause to approach me about for personal references).

My late younger brother (rip) was quite enthralled with the math, symbology, history of Free Masonry from the 80s to 1994 and desputed my truth to his last breath because he was determined I was in the order (which I'm not). Oldest son to oldest son stuff. I'm also going to attach a symbol for the second son and South Carolina ;)

Cheers

Hotspur; all intresting stuff, that is true

Hi Glen,
Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you.

I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball.
W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types".
He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first.
It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975.

In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states;
"...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century.

Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic.

I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history.

As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim and Glen,

I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15.

"King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one."

I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham.

All the Best
Jeff
Plate 18

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of :cool: ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff
:cool:

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me :cool:

All the Best
Jeff

Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance)

I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.


At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history

Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!! :)



The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well.

The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility.



As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory.

In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif.

It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'.
The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired.

One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard.
Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design.

Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

The figure in wonder is a hippocanthus (also written as campe and campus), or sea horse and very much a French sword "in the style of", as are others depicted above. I will try to find the first empire example of a ship's transom decoration but am still plowing through old and misplaced image libraries (although I did get my drive loaded to this one). I do have another plate that was shared with descriptions as well but I am shamed not to remember the book offered (if not ideed the same text another had put up).

It had been described by a dealer as an American artillery officer sword via his seeing the pommel type and as described in Peterson. I took it as a dragoon de ville epee before I had it in hand and then sea horses came into it.

The practice of three swords for an officer was not (apparentlY) singular to French practices but the one I pictured fits those descriptions exactly. A dress, or about town eppe. A highly decorated parade sword and duty sword of plainer nature also work in a trio of emsemble.

I wonder if the term horse latitudes for the Atlantic is a purely French or British trait.

Cheers

Hotspur; lost my hydraulics Friday and need to go chat up my mechanic

Edit for those two book plates and I'm unsure who the author is or the book title. It is firgure 9 that lists them as "a l'anglaise"

LOL! Know what ya mean! Once upon a time I collected British regulation cavalry swords. Just for kicks I looked up "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol.)...yikes...think I better put em in a vault!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Glen,
Sorry I missed this question on the first go round. I am not sure what the diamond is ment for. I read somewhere that Francis Thurkle used it. I have no idea what it represents. I will see if I can find the reference.

Hi Jim,
I am glad I am not the only one :D

All the best.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier.

There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another.

Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century.

Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time)

Cheers

Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one

Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad :) ! You know there will be no sleep until I find it!

Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions.
It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ?

It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics.

I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th.

I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always.

I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society.
Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note.

The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature.
I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon.

Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though !
As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application.

Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it!

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt.

Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland.

As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords.

Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Well, yes, of course Mowbray does picture an example by Thurkle (it is on the front of his cloth bound) but I cannot associate some of the other examples I have shown this thread and elsewhere, simply because one blade is clearly labeled as Wooley and others simply not too Thurkle.

Cheers

Hotspur; I had recently acquired the Mowbray(the younger)/Flayderman Medicus title and really do need to spend quality time with it.

Hi Jeff and Glen,
You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads.
On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc.

Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods.

On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!!

On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic.

Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'.

I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here.
Thank you guys!!

All the best,
Jim

My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081

As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England)

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

Cheers

Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).

Hi Jim,


"Figure 1.A
Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle)

One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail."

Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer :) .

Hi Glen,
Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed.

All the Best
Jeff

Non-Commercial Links are Fine
 

There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged. The one caveat, of course, would be links with a commercial purpose, so 'visit my web store to see one of these for sale' would not receive a favorable moderator's response. Links to dealer's 'sold' pages to illustrate examples remain permissible unless a member has been specifically advised otherwise by a member of the moderators team.

What a nice sequence; worthy of note :).

Fernando

Very nicely said Gentlemen!!! and I am glad we all agree that our endeavors in learning together, sharing information and ideas far surpasses the pettiness too often seen in well known instances that are better left behind us.

Glen, please link away!!! and I really look forward to the detailed and well thought out material that you always share in your writing. I totally agree on trying to recapture material that has already been written in depth....its tough to try to recount accurately and with the same impact usually.

Onward!!!!

All the best,
Jim