Indeed! :)

Hi Spiral & Sancar,
I'm still looking for a descent one, for a descent price...
Hard to find :(
Kubur

Well done Kubur!!! Thank you for reviving this fascinating item and thread, and especially for the outstanding follow up.
I am very much in accord with your suggestion this is quite likely an Austrian 'tribute' type weapon. It seems that the tradition of 'oriental' styles with Eastern European countries swords is of course long standing, and we see the Ottoman style hilts on many of their sabres, the Polish versions of karabela notwithstanding.

I think it would be worth recalling the many auxiliary units in the Austrian and other armies such as the Freikorps, which evolved out of the famed 'Pandour' regiments of Maria Theresa's forces in the mid 18th c.
These units became popular in the Austrian and other European armies some time after the disbanding of von Trencks units in 1750s.
The weaponry and fashions of these units was quite 'exotic' and favored of course many Ottoman forms and styles. It would seem these lavishly decorated sabres posted here might fall into such category.

If I am not mistaken, in Solingen I believe, there were some efforts in producing 'watered steel' blades in the manner of wootz, but I have so little knowledge of details I cannot go further. I am wondering however, if this situation could account for such blades in these interpretative ( and magnificent!) examples.

In the last images, the blade with notching in the blade back reminds me of the curious notches in blades on Scottish skean dhub knives, I think it is termed 'jimpul' . Not suggesting any connection but thought an interesting note.

TWO AUSTRIAN MODEL 1850 INFANTRY OFFICER S SABRE AND AN AUSTRIAN MODEL 1861 INFANTRY OFFICER S SABRE
the first with earlier curved fuller blade inscribed Frince. (rubbed) on one side and with celestial motifs on the other regulation steel hilt fishskin-covered grip in a contemporary steel scabbard; the second with 18th century Turkish blade retaining traces of gold decoration (erased) regulation steel hilt fishskin-covered grip in a contemporary steel scabbard; and the third with earlier Hungarian broad fullered blade double-edged towards the point etched with the figure of Mary on one face and a Patriarchal cross on the other and with pious inscriptions including Maria Mater Dei Patronia Hungaria Sub tuum Pace sicium confugio [sic] regulation hilt fishskin-covered grip in a contemporary steel scabbard with two loops for suspension
the first: 73.5 cm; 29 in blade
(3)

Provenance
The Armoury of Archduke Eugen Fortress Hohenwerfen Salzburg Austria sold Anderson Galleries New York 1st - 5th March 1927 part of lot 487
JWHA Inv. Nos. 269 270 161





AN AUSTRIAN MODEL 1845 CAVALRY OFFICER S SWORD
with minor variations with curved kilig style blade formed with a reinforced back-edged etched with trophies a sun-in-splendour scrolls of foliage and celestial motifs on each face and retaining traces of early gilding regulation steel hilt pierced with two slots at the top engraved FI probably for Ferdinand I (reigned 1835-48) wire-bound fishskin-covered grip in its steel scabbard
83.5 cm; 32 7/8 in blade

Provenance
The Armoury of Archduke Eugen Fortress Hohenwerfen Salzburg Austria sold Anderson Galleries New York 1st - 5th March 1927 part of lot 487
JWHA Inv. No. 272

Thanks Jim
About the Pandour I have something...
Best,
Kubur

Indeed you do Kubur!! Thank you for posting this!
A favorite topic of mine from research years ago .
These guys started out as essentially 'security forces' at landed estates etc. then became border guards, ultimately formed into auxiliary units for Austria around mid 18th c. Baron von Trenck was the primary developer of these units, and they (as can be seen) were extremely uh, 'exotic'.

They were reconnaissance, skirmishers and foragers for the main body of military forces who were much feared as their depredations became more out of control . This to the point that von Trenck was jailed and the units disbanded.
However, the allure of the strategic effectiveness of these forces impressed other European armies as well as remaining an ideal type of unit in the auxiliary status of Austria.

The fearsome flamboyance and colorful style of these forces of course included much the same in their weaponry. They used yataghans, a wide range of arms from many ethnic groups, and much inspired military fashions in cavalry especially for many years into the 19th c.
I have seen cavalry swords which are hybrids of yataghan blade and 18th century hirshfanger (hunting) style hilts, and other Ottoman styled arms which could be attributed to these type units.
In auction a number of years ago was a yataghan type sword attributed to von Trenck (ref: Buttin, 1933).

I think that these kinds of sabres may well be attributed to these kinds of elements which existed and inspired military fashions in a number of European armies, with Austria at the fore, recalling that this sphere was essentially the Austro-Hungarian domain .

Indeed, I think Normans got the best one....

Spiral

What a fabulous sabre Norman

Hi,
First of all my apologies to everybody for the rather curt replies to your interesting posts. I've been a wee bit busy and not had the time to reply as I would like to. :o Thanks to ALL for your appreciation of this piece, I must admit it's a bit of a lovely beast. :) I have in the past few days written to several academic institutions in the hope of getting some resolution to the translation of the script, if this is at all possible, as I suspect this is the key to a more definitive answer as to the origins of the blade. The auction descriptions I posted I think are quite interesting. The blade description in the second single item lot would appear to give credence to the idea of Austrian use of European made blades in the Kilic/Pala style which probably should not be much of a surprise as, as we all know, middle Eastern blade styles were widely copied after Napoleon's enterprises in Egypt. I would also point out that the second sword in the first lot is obviously a trophy blade mounted in the style of the day hence we have two distinct pieces. I think it is worth pointing out that the possible European manufactured blade as described has decoration very much in the fashion of 18thC early 19thC European made blades i.e. sun in splendour etc. I am very much of the opinion that although an Austrian sword has a European made kilic/pala style blade I doubt very much indeed that it would be decorated with obvious Islamic script given the rancour between these two empires and the terrible conflict that went on for so long. Thanks once again for all your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman; "I doubt very much indeed that it would be decorated with obvious Islamic script given the rancour between these two empires and the terrible conflict that went on for so long"
Good point Norman ;)

I fully agree with both for two reasons:
First, they probably hated the Ottomans and Muslims.
Second, because the sword-maker had probably no clue about Arabic writing.
BUT, they did these pseudo-writings and decorations on the blades to imitate the Ottoman blades. It means that they liked the design and the decorations. The Greeks did almost the same.

Kubur

Hi Kubur,
I can't remember seeing a positively identified European made blade in the 'Eastern' style that had Islamic script psuedo or otherwise on the blade but as always I'm open to contradiction.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I am aware that there was a trade in arms made in the 'Eastern' style by European manufacturers for export to countries where that style was prevalent.

I agree Norman, while European trade blades of course often carried spurious markings and inscriptions, these had to do with imbued quality implications as well as certain appeal to certain clientele. However, as far as I have ever known, no attempts were ever made to duplicate any sort of Arabic or other Islamic form inscriptions, cartouches or markings. There was sometimes copy of 'Arabesque' style motif, which was simply decorative and of course false 'damascene'.

On the other hand, European style markings and inscriptions were often copied by native artisans in various ethnographic spheres, and these of course were typically readily recognizable as false.

The efforts to duplicate "Eastern " style by the west was primarily metallurgical, to the watered steel quality of the blade, as well as often to blade features such as yelman, yataghan type recurve etc .
When Osborne was researching to develop the British cavalry sabre which became the M1796, he examined numerous 'Oriental' forms such as kilic; shamshirs and tulwars. A good number of early models for officers had distinct yelmans on blades and at least one had a yataghan type blade.

There is the bit where one of the inscription is readable Arabic. Its likely a copy though as some bits are not done correctly.

Hi Guys,

I agree with you for Western Europe. After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans.

I don't agree with you for Central and Eastern Europe. I think that the swords in this thread (Norman's sword and the three swords that I presented) are purely Austrians. As Jim said Poland or Bulgaria have a long history with the Islamic world and Ottoman weapons (as the Karabella hilt).
Nevertheless I don't know any Ottoman example identical to the swords in this thread. If you find one Ottoman example with such blades, please put it on line as I did. A last word, we cannot discard that the sword-markers working for the Austrian Empire came from the Ottoman Empire. Such blades are admirable and require a lot of knowledge.

Best,
Kubur

Hi All,
I have received information from a reputable source that the blade on this sword is not of Ottoman manufacture and therefore the only conclusion that I can come to is that the blade is indeed of European/Austrian origin manufactured in the Ottoman fashion. The blade has most likely been rehilted a few times depending on the hilt pattern of the day and does show some marks indicating possible action. There are remains of gilding where hilt and blade meet and this sword must have been a 'bit of a looker' in its heyday. Many thanks to Jim et al who contributed to this thread but particularly to Kubur whose insistence made me delve further than I had previously.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

In my oppinion it is a pattern welded blade very close to Turkish ribbon. Judging only from the photos I cannot be sure but anyhow would bet that is a Turkish made blade. However, it happened before that I lost a bet. ;)

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I'm still not absolutely sure either.!!! The history of animosity between these two empires is well documented and I still find it difficult to reconcile an Austrian officer sporting an Austrian made Ottoman style blade.
:confused:
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi All,
I have reread the correspondence from my reputable source and it is clear that they are sure that this is an Austrian made blade, probably mid 18thC, as apparently this emulation of Ottoman blade profile and decoration was in vogue at this time. I'm also happy to say that the type is not at all common and I suspect this rarity of form has been a big stumbling block in properly identifying this sword. Thanks once again to all who participated in this most interesting discussion.
Regards,
Norman.

Western European Mameluke Officer's Sword
 

Hi Guys

I originally posted this sword on the Ethnographic Weapons page of Vikingsword Forum, as the previous owner had it marked down as a Turkish Generals Sword. Thanks to assistance from this posting we have now settled on the sword being western European with pseudo ottoman script.

Now that I have had more time to review this sword I can also provide a better description:
Western European Officer’ Mameluke. Hilt has an all in one brass backstrap and Pistol shaped pommel (without the usual hole in the pommel). Brass Ferrule with corded central decoration. Brass cross guard with Chain Guard. Grip decoratively carved bone. Curved single edged flat blade with shallow (9 ½” 24 cm) clip back point. Blade has a small decorative panel on each side containing pseudo ottoman script. Plain steel scabbard with two throat screws and two steel bands with hangers.

The swords dimensions are:
Overall Length: In Scabbard 35 ¼” 89.6 cm, sword only 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade length: 28 ¼” 71.8 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 ¾” 14.5 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm

I am still trying to identify whether the sword is Hungarian, French or English. I have been unable to find another example with this unusual style pf Pistol pommel/grip. On a previous post I did find a reference stating that “After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans”. Which certainly would seem to fit with this sword.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Yes Cathey, this is the right place for your sword.

Then I won't be able to say if your sword is Austrian or Hungarian, but for sure it is from Central Europe.

This Sword is not French at all and probably not Western European.

:cool: