Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

Well Jens, all those bundles of blades taken by the Portuguese (firangi) for trade in India, were in fact of Italian manufacture.

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire.


Yes Jim you have point, which is interesting, but I do not have the knowlege to answer it, it would take a lot of research, in an area where I have far too little knowledge.

I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities. When I went to a gold shop in an Arabian Gulf soukh 10 years ago to repair a contemporary gold chain, the proprietor gave me a beady eyed look and inquired whether it was “franji” (i.e. Western European, or Swedish in my particular case) gold. In contrast Orthodox or Byzance is called Rûm (as in East Rome or Constantinople) by muslims. So the local Orthodox hospital in Beirut is called Al Roum Hospital. They have used these terms for 1,000 years as far as I know as nations came and went.

No ball ... or any other game, Jens; no such reaction needed :confused:. I know no more than what i have read so often. When i get home i may be able to define this in detail.

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! :) It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

Struggling through old notes, found this re: Italian blades in India

"...in 1691 we have note of an incident that throws light on the existence of so many European swords in use in India. It appears that in May of that year, Sir John Chardin, agent for the Armenian nation, presented a petition from Bogos Ariel, Davod and Zacaiia Parsijian, Armenian merchants who had contracted with the EIC of England to carry upon their ships the trade which they formerly did with Italy".

It appears that the source of the blades now to be carried are said to be from 'Nuremberg' and to the 'East Indies'. It appears that due to the restrictions in England on receiving German blades due to importing restrictions led to the dispersing of these blades into India. The Mahrathas did not think much of English blades, but very much favored German.

In the events in the Indian Ocean involving the notorious Captain Kidd, a virtual byword for 'pirate', his greatest infraction was the overtaking of a vessel in use in trade for India, and it does seem this was chartered or owned by Armenian merchants.

It would seem that much of the entry of European blades into India by this time was through trade conveyed by Armenian merchants. It would appear that these industrious merchants were instrumental in trade in a number of spheres in addition to India. The conveyance of trade blades into India, whether Italian or German, seem to have been brought in through these kinds of trades vessels by this time in the 17th century.

In the 17th century, the blade making industry in Toledo had faltered, and there was a great reliance on Germany for blades, while Italy still maintained a notable presence in producing them as well. The cross mingling of markings and spurious use of names etc. make the identification of blades to either very difficult in many cases. I am unaware of Portuguese blade producers, and had thought their blades to have been largely Solingen products, much as were the English trade venues.

The material on the Armenian conveyance:
"The Export of European Blades to India"
by Lord Dillon
in 'Archaeological Journal' Vol. LXii , p.67, 69-72

For some reason, I am always of the impression that Italy was not particularly involved in any sort of mass export of blades. Most of what I have seen in accounts of Italian swords are that the blade makers produced their blades, which were then sent to hilt makers (for example in Brescia etc) and the sword in entirety was then to the client or armourer.
Many swords in the Wallace collection are seen with Italian blades but German hilts, sometimes even vice versa, so perhaps these were simply remounting exchanges.

I think the most prevalent evidence for exported blades would have been the Genoan (and surrounding cities) which is suggested by the noted copy of the famed sickle marks, which are notably copied by many Indian artisans on their blades.

Finally got my faithful Elgood, , "Hindu Arms & Ritual",
With the notes concerning the Armenian involvement in the transport of goods including sword blades into India, it is noted this was in the latter 17th c.

As the Portuguese presence began with Vasco de Gama in 1498 at Calicut and Elgood (p.39) notes the assumption that 'European' blades were entering Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from beginning of 16th c.

It is noted further that most of the European blades appear to have been from the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, and those described are rapier blades (p.38). It is also noted that many European blades had passed into Arab and Turk hands and unknown quantities preceded the Portuguese in falling into the hands of the indigenous peoples of India.

In 1514, Pires describes TRADE GOODS SENT FROM VENICE TO INDIA INCLUDING ARMS, so this is interesting as it sounds as if this was via a Portuguese transport.

It is noted that through the 16th century Portuguese relations in Vijayanagara were good and included their supplying allies with arms.
This however seems to have changed in about 1606 when Dutch began challenging Portuguese monopoly and they were defeated by the ruler of Jaffna, with many weapons captured.
Apparently the Marathas also captured many arms from them later, by early 18th c. The Dutch began dominating trade markets and clearly the blades were by this time German.

Tavernier records weapons at Surat as long rapiers probably sold by English or Portuguese, and it seems these were 16th c. with most tending to be German, but some being Spanish and Italian.

Basically it seems that from contact and through 16th century there was a predominance of blades presumably through Portuguese sourcing, but they were not exclusively Italian, but mostly German with a number of Iberian and Italian blades.

By early 17th century, the Dutch as well as EIC became key suppliers and these were primarily German blades. While it is noted that ANDREA FERARA blades were among these, we know of course that these were produced in great number in Solingen from early to mid 17th into 18th century.

Absolutely. It all depends on the context.

For those who are interested in the history of the time from different view points I can highly recommend Amin Maalouf’s The Crusades through Arab Eyes [2004] which uses contemporary Arab chronicles and eye witnesses accounts of the time. From the Foreword: “These latter [contemporary Arab chroniclers] spoke not of Crusades, but of Frankish wars, or ‘the Frankish invasions’. The word designating the Franks was transcribed in many ways, according to the region, author, and period. In the various chronicles, we find Faranj, Faranjat, Ifranj, Ifranjat, and other variants. For the sake of consistency, I have chosen to use the briefest form, Franj, a word which is used in colloquial Arabic even today to designate Westeners, and the French in particular.”

Incidentally, Frankreich, the German word for France, means Land of the Franks.

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

While really only indirectly off tangent, it should be noted that the 'sickle marks' which are regarded as 'Genoan' and often bracket the FRINGIA word, are on occasion found with this 'mill rind' (twig, fly) marking in place of the word.
As we are looking at the use and possible origin of this mark of the OP, it is interesting that on occasion it is seen within the sickle marks which at times hold the FRINGIA word. I agree with your explanation of the similarity of Fringia and Firangi, and can see how these might be phonetically transcribed.

What is most unusual however is that on East European swords, many are found with these FRINGIA markings. Is it possible that blades intended for release to Middle Eastern trade, might have ended up used in the European context in which they were produced instead of being exported?

We see the Fringia term written, but I have yet to see any with the word Firangi or its variations. Perplexing !

Still the explanation makes perfect sense. It is good to look further into these Italian markings, and these words which sometimes appear related.

foreign: outsider, from the roman foraneus, someone from outside your empire/nation.

Firengi phonetically sounds a lot like that. Portugese traders and their latin speaking priests were trading there quite early (as were the egyptians, romans etc. for ages. they likely referred to themselves as foraneus.

Fringe: another word used above. 14c old French ( :) ) Franki Feranki - ferengi - fringy - frenchy (etc. ad nauseum)- word from the latin for the fibrous border or edge of a woven cloth, used here as on the fringes, or beyond the fringes, ie. foreign, firengi. Japanese: Gaijin = literally an outer person, foreigner - Portugese were for a long time the only 'outsiders' allowed in Japan, again mainly Priests who spoke latin in churches to their converts.

Loaner Words get around a lot it seems. getting local vowel drift, and mis-speilingks as it wends it's way thru it's travels.

:cool:

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/A...an-Talwar-Hilt

For those fans of ethimology ... and semanthics ?
 

Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned.

.

Can you believe this ?
 

Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ?
Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess.

(Toledo Army Museum)


.

Points noted Jim,
So, between the two 'unlikely' probabilities, the Italian blade mounted in a Spanish plug (hunting) bayonet would be the more likely one.
No such mention in he caption, though :shrug:


.

Here is an interesting example of the single millrind mark - on the same blade appears the "Passau wolf". The sword is suggested to be Italian, being exceptionally similar to one in a well known painting... So should we suppose this is an example of a contemporary faked Passau mark? Or perhaps the millrind is indeed not a personal maker's mark, as I think was suggested above...

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...=80&pos=41

Excellent example Reventlov! and the sword illustrated is of course compellingly similar to that in the painting.
I do not believe the 'mill rind' stamp is confined to any single maker, or it would appear just as with other marks (as the 'Passau wolf' noted) that it was to a particular center in any of the countries well known for blade and arms making.

I have often wondered if Italy ever used the Passau wolf, and in my perception it seems doubtful, however the use of the mill rind of course did occur in German context. It seems feasible that a German blade could have ended up in Italy as blades were typically sent to hilting locations there, and a blade from Passau may have easily been used just as the blades from Italian makers.

From reading some time ago (I believe in Wagner) it was said that Solingen often produced blades for Passau makers, and applied the wolf in accord with those 'contracts' (?). Such are the conundrums of specific classifications in these clearly diversified circumstances.

Current project about Belunese swordmakers
 

Hi All,
my name is Giovanni Sartori, I live in Northern Italy and my main interest is to recover and to share knowledge about italian arms and armour makers.

I am the author of the article about storta for the exhibition in Minsk and I am the maker of the copy of the Caino storta shown in the article (and the video documentary, sadly avaiable only with catalogue of the exhibition).

By the way, I am here to tell you some things about marks, Andrea Feraro, Belluno and other towns related to swordmaking in Republic of Venice.

There is a lot to tell, I will start with marks but spending some words about the production area.

The "Belluno Flyes" or "Belluno Knots" (I use second term) are marks mainly used in the area that I call swordmakers "triangle".

This area develops around 3 main towns: Belluno, Feltre and Vittorio Veneto (before IWW his divided is Serravalle and Ceneda 2 little villages along the turrent Meschio).
The reasons of such a great development of swordmaking art here are mainly 3:
-the nearness with mines of Fursil and Colle Santa Lucia that provides, since roman times, a superio quality of ore. Manganese rich siderite is a ore relatively poor of iron content (around 40%) but fre from phosphor and sulphur that are the worst elements to have in the steel. On other hand manganese is an element that gives great mechanical propreties to the steel made (we can discuss later about this point)
-the nearness with 2 big rivers (Brenta and Piave), that are crucial to transport goods from production centers to Venice lagoon, where is the bigger market of renaissance Europe. Do you know Stradivari Violins? very good... same rivers where used to bring wood to make that violins from Val di Fiemme forests.
-the presence of the main "driving force" before invention of steam engine: the hydraulic power. This area is full of water and we are in the very first part of dolomitic area (alps) so become easier to use the force of the falling water.

In this area many swordmaking masters has lived and worked. In Belluno for example Andrea Feraro and his brother Zandonà has started to work at the Fisterre workshop owned by Giovanni Barcelloni (do you remember the scorpion mark on hafted weapons? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newrep...eply&p=244426#). Andrea has countinued to live and work in Belluno until the end of his life (no... he has not moved to Scotland or Brescia or Milan). His brother Zandonà has bought his workshop in Serravalle (Vittorio Veneto) and his descendance has contiunued to produce swords until the end of XVII century.
Another great master is Pietro da Formicano (another story to tell)

To come back to the marks...
This marks seems to appear in the second half of XV century and being used during all XVI and very first part of XVII. The real meaning of them is still unclear, many legends but nothing certain. They are not related to the Venice arsenal because arsenal mark was used in Venice where they not produce, but only store weapons and armours. The classical arsenal mark is a circle with a St.Marc Lion inside (simbol of Venice Republic). Same thing for Doge armoury (CX armoury).

CIVIDAL DE BELUN is for cetainly a rare mark (Cividal is the roman name of city, sometimes used alone to indicate Belluno). And proves in my opionion the production of big stocks of blades made by many swordmakers together.

To conclude, I have studied many years the belunese swordmakers and now I am part of a big project called KLANG.

The aim of this project is to study this lost history of our countries and to promote it. We are planning conferences, exhibitions, new studies and pubblications.

Feel free to ask me everithing you want about the argoument, I will do my best to give you an exhaustive reply

All the best
Giovanni Sartori

Benvenuto nel forum, Giovanni :) .
Great info and revelations you have posted. I am sure the members will love to read all that ... and more to come, if you will :cool:

Hello Giovanni, and welcome to the forum.
I dont collect European swords and daggers, but I do have a Firangi with a blade from Belluno.

Hi Vittorio!

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for posting. Your article is excellent and really beautiful sword!

I would love to learn more about Italian swords and local manufacturing centres. It would be great if you could keep us posted on your work. It would also be very welcome if someone could translate some of the books from Italian. There should be a market for this.

Which are the best places in Italy to visit for arms and armour? Do the old manufacturing facilities still exist as museums? When I was in Milano I hoped to travel to Brescia to see the arms collection in the castle but unfortunately ran out of time. I hope to make another trip to see the Venice Arsenal and then take the train to Brescia. Is Brescia and Caino very different from the swordmakers ”triangle” which you mentioned?

All the best and mille grazie,

Victrix

italian storta last quarter of of 16thc.

Outstanding example ... of both sword and marks !


-

Thank you to all for the warm welcome! @Fernando ;)

Ok a lot to discuss here ;)

@Jens Nordlunde for sure your is such a rare find!
CIVIDAL DE BELUN is a mark that proves the sword has been made in Belluno.
Maybe part of a big stock for foreign countries.
In my personal opinion this mark is indicating the collaboration of many swordmakers to supply to that big require.
We must not forget that Venice for centuries has been the great "Door" for Middle and Far East.
Every type of goods arrive and leave Venice. Included steel and weapons (arms and armour).
As explained before, water has been the key of everithing for centuries, from the rivers, to the lagoon, to the Mediterranean Sea.
The connection with middle east has been so strong for centuries, I have found some Andrea Feraro blades mounted in arab swords.
There is a funny thing to say, and I will explain better this point about Caino swordmakers later.
The Venice Steel, called by Venetians "iron for weapons" (ferro d'arme) was considered for centuries one of the best steel avaiable on the market for his charateristics, not only for the ore from what it has made, but also for the process to make it.
In the first of XVI century, the arab scientist and engineer Taqi al-Din ibn Ma’ruf (Damascus, 1526–Istanbul, 1585), wrote a book about clockmaking.
On this book, The Brightest Stars for the Construction of the Mechanical Clocks, he says that the only steel suitable for clock springs is the Venice one because is very resistant and does not break.
Venice laws about the commerce and production of this steel were very restrictive, it was a sort of government "industrial secret".

@Victrix
-Milan: Poldi Pezzoli Museum (important museum from private collection), Bagatti Valsecchi, Castello Sforzesco
-Turin: Armeria Reale in the Royal Palace of the Savoy family has astonishing pieces included the famous San Maurice sword: a XIII century sword in perfect condition (seems has been made yesterday)
-Brescia: Marzoli Collection (another important museum from a private collection), here is the famous "Brescia spadona" tha Albion take as a model for his copy.
-Venice: Palazzo Ducale Armory (Doge Palace), Correr Collection, Ca' Pesaro (one of the most important collection of Japanese Arms and Armour in Europe)
-Churburg: Castel Coira Armory, a noble family armoury that exhist since XIV century, if you like armours this is the sancta sanctorum.
-Florence: Stibbert Museum (tons of armours and weapons in a neogothic villa made by a English nobleman) for sure one of the most important private collection in the world (second bigger collection in the world of japanese arms and armour), Bargello Museum (a lot of very very interesting pieces, many of them ver rare), Museo Della Caccia Cerreto Guidi (same as Bargello)
-Mantua: Museo Diocesano Francesco Gonzaga, the biggest collection of XV century italian armours in the world.
-Rome: Castel Sant'Angelo Armory (Pope armory), Collezione Odescalchi (there is some interesting swords here, included a Pietro da Formicano spadone)
-Naples: Museo Capo di Monte (original battle of Pavia tapestry, Farnese and Borbonic armory)

And About Caino
Caino is a little village in the Garza Valley, on the Alps section closer to Brescia, this little valley is closer to the bigger Val Trompia valley famous for firearms makers (Beretta the most famous).
From the XV century Brescia has been part of the Venice Republic and with his valleys (Val Camonica and Val Trompia) ha become the bigger siderurgic compartment of Italy.
So the two big centers of steel production in Venice Republic have been two: -Brescia Valleys with theyr big manganese rich siderite mines (same quality as near Belluno)
-Mines of Colle Santa Lucia and Fursil near Belluno, blast furnaces were in Zoldo, where a big community of furnace masters from Brescia has been established to run furnaces and fineries in the "brescian way".
The only difference has been the quantity of ore extracted between the two areas and so the quantity of steel produced. Mines in Brescian area are much more rich and bigger than the Belluno mines.

In the XIII century, in that valleys has been developed a new smelting process, called the "brescian method" that is a way to convert cast iron from blast furnaces to steel or iron with a finery (this is called indirect process).
Probably the earliest blast furnaces has been built here, making possible the production of enormous quantities of iron and steel.
The development of the "indirect process" of steel making has been an enormous technological revolution, to see another siderurgical revolution like this we will must wait for the industrial revolution in XVIII century.
Compared to the "old" technology of bloomery furnace (direct method) the brescian process has imporved not only quantity but also quality of steel produced.
Making possible that great development of arms and armour production in northern Italy from XIV century.

Caino has the great advantage to be into that area, where was possible to find great quantity of hight quality steel to make blades.
The problem is that before XVI century there was no swordsmithing tradition here like in Belluno area, so the owners of the workshops (keep in mind that in medieval time owner of the workshop rarely match with master that work in it) decide to convert theyr production (mainly agricultural tools, and papermaking mills) into swordmaking.
To do this they ask to some Belluno area masters to come in Caino and to start to run activity making swords in theyr workshops.
So Caino, has become a swordmakin center in XVI for the fact that some masters moved there from Feltre, Belluno, Vittorio Veneto and other places closer to the triangle.

@cornelistromp beautiful example of storta! There is a very similar blade in Poldi Pezzoli collection in Milan. I will post the photo later.

Cheers
Giovanni

Some Belluno area marks!

Cheers
Giovanni

Most interesting info... and useful, Giovani.
Post copied to the EARLY " MAKERS TRADE MARKS" page, situated in the "Classic Threads" front page sticky.

Thank you Giovani, this is most interesting. I too have a firangi blade with some of these stamps. The problem is, that the Indian smiths were very good at copying both blades and stamps.
Is there any indication of, how far down the blades there stamps would be - was there a standard measure from the hilt?
This could, maybe, help us to point out the copied blades/stamps.

Sorry to all for my boring talk about swordsmiths!
I want to share my knowledge and I think only knowing the story of a piece we can understand his real value.
Yes, marks are my passion too but it is important too to know who are the artisans that have put their marks on the blade.

Just my tought.

;)

Your talk is not boring ... at all, Giovani; on the contrary. Just keep on sharing your knowledge, which we will deeply appreciate :cool: .
By the way, marks are also a passion of many of our members ... myself included ;) .

One problem could be, that when the stamp got worn, the image on the blade would change. Maybe the Indian smiths did not take so much notice as they would in Italy?!!!

From the superb additions and at #70 on Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf by Andrea Ferraro89


see Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf on the web... :shrug:

Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf

Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf ash-Shami al-Asadi was an Ottoman polymath active in Cairo and Istanbul. He was the author of more than ninety books on a wide variety of subjects, including astronomy, clocks, engineering, mathematics, mechanics, optics and natural philosophy. In 1574 the Ottoman Sultan Murad III invited Taqī ad-Dīn to build the Constantinople observatory. Using his exceptional knowledge in the mechanical arts, Taqī ad-Dīn constructed instruments like huge armillary and mechanical clocks that he used in his observations of the Great Comet of 1577. He also used European celestial and terrestrial globes that were delivered to Istanbul in gift-exchange. The major work that resulted from his work in the observatory is titled "The tree of ultimate knowledge in the Kingdom of the Revolving Spheres: The astronomical tables of the King of Kings". The work was prepared according to the results of the observations carried out in Egypt and Istanbul in order to correct and complete Ulugh Beg’s Zij as-Sultani. The first 40 pages of the work deal with calculations, followed by discussions of astronomical clocks, heavenly circles, and information about three eclipses which he observed at Cairo and Istanbul. For corroborating data of other observations of eclipses in other locales like Daud ar-Riyyadi, David Ben-Shushan of Salonika.

Giovanni, please never presume that the kind of detail and material you have so generously placed here is 'boring' or any such nonsense!

While there is certainly a spectrum of readers here whose scope in their degree of interest varies, there are many of us who look to the historical and investigative aspects, and very much appreciate your work.

Others are interested mostly in the collecting aspects of weapons, and look for typology and classification primarily as they assemble their groupings in chosen fields.

Often the study of weapons leads into unexpected related areas, such as the control of steel in the Italian regions you are describing, and surprisingly, and seemingly 'foreign' awareness of it by the Ottoman's as detailed by Ibrahiim.


This reminds us that true investigative study is not confined to the topic at hand rigidly, and often key clues are found in remarkably different contexts. One good analogy toward this is finding hints in analyzing cyphers and marks or inscriptions on blades from period coins of considered regions.

As one here who, as Fernando notes, has been very keen on markings for more years than I can say, this profound attention to the ANDREA FERARA and Belluno conundrums is great!

What Jens notes on the deterioration of marking stamps is very pertinent, and we have seen for example, in Sudan, the twin moon mark on the kaskara and takouba swords in many cases took very different character over years. This was from degeneration, and remade stamps not having the same nuances.

While makers probably faced these dilemmas with stamps, they also fashioned variations as their families entered the craft or other workers joined. To compound this, as always, were the spurious uses of marks.

Dear colleagues,
Looking for your help with this mark on the schiavona's blade which looks similar, but not the same.

It looks like this one: