I fall into believing the "Deluge Theory" which Gimbutas hints at but others provide some evidence. How early & how far different groups traveled & had direct or even indirect influences may never be proved. The Vikings traded in Bagdad so we know there was some extreme early trading. Considering the length & size of the Ottoman Empire there likely was early direct influence but if not, surely indirect. But i'd think some forms of contacts before the Ottoman period between Turkey & "the Islands" likely but I certainly have no proof. DNA studies are likely to throw some wrenches into current history. Early Brunei was a trade center & could be a link. You might also look into the gold death masks found on Mindanao/Sulawesi & those found in Egypt & China. And if you don't mind, please find out who dug those ancient mines in Mindanao.

Where would we be without Wikipedia?

:)

I think gold was mined and valued by early Filipinos specially in the Caraga region. Pigafetta wrote about early Filipinos with gold teeth. Interestingly, there are lumads (natives), mandaya in particular, who still keep the tradition until today. Old mandayas have one or two gold front teeth and the rest are black from lime and bettel nuts we call apog and mama.

Baganing Balyan, if you have not seen the gold masks but would like to see them, then visit the Metropolitan Museum (along Roxas Blvd), or the University of Santo Tomas (UST) Museum. While you are at the UST, check out the library. You will find lots of references there on the Philippines' past. Afterall, UST is the country's oldest university. By the way, also check out the Central Bank Museum which is also along Roxas Blvd. You may find gold stuff there as well.

Your passion for research is inspiring. You may want to deepen that research by talking to local experts and professionals who spend their lifetime gaining such information (as there is much still much not written in the internet). Universities like UST, the University of the Philippines, the Ateneo de Manila University, Mindanao State University, Xavier University in Cagayan de Oro, etc, etc. have very informed professors, anthropologists, historians, who can help you. It would be great to hear the result of your further research. Good luck!!!

hi guys,

sorry, been on vacation :rolleyes:

as a matter of fact, they do. magical symbols, jawi, Qur'anic verses and okir are every now and then can be found in Moro weapons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...e26fe238-1.jpg



i'm not following the timeline here. if you're referring to the writings on the weapons, etc. during the 14th c. i'm sure a lot of us here would love to see a moro weapon from that era, writings or no writings.


i'm sure it's the same way the word "Moro" (moors) got introduced.
Spain. :)

Hey Spunjer, nice to see you back from vaca. ;)
That kris looks familiar. Is it the one you got for Harold with the pommel repaired. If so it's nice to see it restored. :)
I think a lot of us would like to see a Moro weapon from the 14th century or be able to say with any amount of certainty just when the kris first appeared there. The earliest kris that Cato shows he dates to 18th century. It is, of course, possible that these "archaic" kris are a bit older. Maybe 16th century...a real stretch, i'd say, to place them any older.
I don't know how long the word "turko" has been in usage, but i think that your idea that it was introduced by the Spanish is a strong one. :)
Nice to have you back. :)

wassup david
yup. that's the same one from harold. matter of fact, i just saw him last month at the OGCA. still going strong, that guy
we've seen a few archaic examples, but yes, proving it was earlier would be hard, if not impossible, save for a sunken ship like the one they found in indonesia..

Find krises that are earlier than the one you showed. Sulu and Maguindanao muslims have their own dialects. Arabic was not widely-used and written then. Madrassas are recent development.

If the Spanish introduced "turko," don't you think they would have also introduced "vikingo" (viking) since the viking culture and history also reached spain like the Ottomans'? Unfortunately, we don't have vikingo in our language.

Filipinos have names for the people their forefathers encountered in ancient times. For chinese, we have tsino and intsik, Dutch, Olandes, africans, negro not africano.

That is part of the problem. As i mentioned before, the earliest Moro kris that i have ever seen tend to date to the 18th century. It might be possible that these have been misdated and are closer to 17th century, but earlier than that is doubtful. The one that Spunjer shows here is most probably late 19th century. If anyone can show me a Moro kris from the 14th century i would sure like to see it. :)
There are many threads on this forum that show these so-called "archaic" kris and we have had quite a bit of discussion on them. There are also many Moro kris threads that deal with blades that have inscriptions, okir and/or magickal symbols on them. As Spunjer has pointed out, these inscriptions are sometimes written in Jawi. I would suggest that you try the search function and check some of these threads out. They will definitely help you with your research. :)
BTW, can you actually pinpoint when the word "turko" came into the language?

Great to have you back Spunger :D

You are right David - his kris is late 19thc (I did the silver bands :D ). A great piece!

I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older. Moros then and muslims now have a tradition of treating weapons as heirlooms.

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India. It could not be borneo because ivory bracelets are only common among the lumads in caraga and davao region. I haven't seen Muslim women in muslim mindanao wear old ivory bracelets.

It is hard to date folklore. As far as I know, my grandparents had been using the words turko, bombay, and negro even without meeting a turk, an indian, and an african. They are just part of our lexicon and consciousness. bombay has a proven history in the Philippines, so is the negro (slaves) during the spanish galleon trade, but the story about the turko is still not clear.

I have been researching about the origin of sulu, its meaning, and what language it came from. I could not find it in early Malay words, in Spanish, but i have found it in turkish language and it means "water." It perfectly suits to the geography of sulu, the philippine province.

Sanskrit also has sulu. it means "one who cuts well" and it is a term use in Indian classical dance, but Mandakranta Bose wrote in her book, Movement and Mimesis: The Idea of Dance in the Sanskritic, that the use of sulu only began in 16th century.

I believe Indian's sulu is an influence of the muslim's temple dance pangalay in sulu, the Philippine province, where krises are sometimes used-- hence, the meaning, "one who cuts well."

I still believe that sulu became a name of the place when the arab missionaries reached the island bringing Islam and the Ottomans were with them. The spread of Islam that time was synonymous to the expansion of the ottoman empire.

I would disagree with you on Spunger's kris - I had it in hand and the pommel is elephant ivory with grain structure indicative of elephant ivory. Also, ivory from India and Sumatra was traded in the reaching, including reaching the Philippines,China, and Japan.

the use of ivory in mindanaoan weaponry is recent not ancient-- probably when the Europeans occupied Borneo in late 1800's.

Smithsonian photographs do not even show krises with ivory handles.

I also have a copy of thirteenth century text written by a chinese trader involved in ivory trading not with the people of sulu but with the lumads (natives) of palawan.

Hi Baganing,

This is a more general comment, rather than a specific response. I happen to work in the sciences, and there's this idea that some have called "scientific sexiness." It's when you fall head over heels in love with this wonderful idea, and then go out chasing it and trying to prove it's true. The problem with great ideas is that not all of them turn out to be so great once you get to know them. Yes, there are parallels between science and dating.

In any case, what separates the good scientists from the bad ones isn't the sexiness of their ideas, it's that their sexy ideas stand up to cold, hard, often brutal scrutiny, primarily because they're testable, and withstand all attempts to refute them with the best evidence available.

While I agree that you have to be a strong advocate for your ideas (and they are interesting), if you want to do truly good scholarship, you also need to find ways to test your ideas. If your ideas cannot be tested in a way that would disprove them, then they really aren't great.

That's okay. I've got a closetful of sexy ideas. Most researchers do. My favorite unfulfilled sexy idea is waiting for someone discover 70 million year old fossil roots of a proto-oak from Burma--if such roots exist. Once someone finds those roots, I can write a paper that will change everyone's ideas about how plants evolved. But only if I'm right about what how those roots are constructed, and only if they exist. There may or may not be parallels between this story and trying to find a 600 year old kris to support your ideas.

My 0.00002 cents. Back to lurking. Interesting thread!

F

do you have a copy of this smithsonian photographs you're talking about?



huh? how did you connect vikings and turks? i wish you could explain this further as this is very interesting.


i'm interested in finding out why you think these krises were older. surely there are tell tale signs, no?

Baganing Balyan, I forgot to mention the Summer Insitute of Linguistics located in Quezon City, Philippines. You will find lots of information there as well.

Nonoy

I meant to say photographs of old krises. Ivory handles are mostly 19th century. in archaeology, the more intricate a tool looks, the more recent it is.

You said the spanish introduced the "turko" to the philippines. Granting they did since Spain was not spared by the ottomans, they would have also introduced "vikingo" since vikings also invaded/raded spain. Why would they be selective about their history, if indeed they introduced the image or the word turko to the filipinos?

anyway, I checked and compared the Y-Chromosome haplogroups of sumatra, borneo, and philippines. They all share the same haplogroups C,O,D, and K, but the only difference is that philippines has haplogroup R1B. Guess what... Turkey has R1b.

I am not sure though if the haplogroup i thought to be R1B is right (the color is just too tiny and vague. Maybe it is RxR1. If it is the case, still there is a turkish connection, turkey has K (western asia or eurasia haplogroup) too, and that would mean, there are also turkish genes in sumatra and borneo like philippines.

I need to go back home and ask my tausug friends for DNA testing. I have always believed that their ancestry can be traced back to turkey since I got a turkish boyfriend years ago who just looked like my tausug cousin. hehehehe

y-chromosome haplogroups

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:

ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:

and this:


so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

correction: I did not change my tone. I said it's 19th century, and if you want me to put a ball park, it's mid 19th century upto mid 20th century. I did not change.

I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.

if you are an antiquarian or antique collector, 1800 artifact is ancient. For anthropologists or historians ancient means centuries ago.

Stop nitpicking. It was you who said turko was introduced by the spanish, and I refuted that idea since vikingo does not exist in our Lexicon. Bombay exists. It's because early Filipinos did meet early Indians, and there were indians living in cainta, rizal as early as mid 1700.

As I studied Philippine languages, it seems that we don't have early names for foreigners our forefathers had not met. Vikingo is a case in point. Yes, I checked the DNA chart, Filipinos do not have any viking genes.

By the way, I think the r1b I thought is actually rxr1 coming from the australian aborigines and cameroon, africa. It is explainable. We have negroid natives in the philippines such as aetas.

Now why would Philippines sumatra, and borneo have a eurasian haplogroup? I think that's where the turkish ottomans enter the scene.

really?

here's a Kris Espada dated 1899

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/cbc7cbcb.jpg

now, here's a Kalis Seko from the early 1800's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...542cff46-1.jpg

and a museum piece i was fortunate enough to study, a Kris Luma from late 1700's/early 1800's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...57400f0c-1.jpg

which is similar to one of our member's piece (VVV), and btw, with an Ivory pommel

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...haic+moro+kris

seems to be that the older pieces are more intricate than the newer one in this case. care to explain? again, you haven't answered my question on how do you know the alleged smithsonian pictures were old by your definition?

turko is spanish. spanish conquered philippines. how hard is that?

I think we are still a few years away from having DNA tell us a good story but it's coming. It certain to challenge current history. Societies need to provide food & protection. When those things are met in a time efficient manner, constant progress can be made to make tasks even more efficient & evolve into more inventions. Certainly the use of metals (tools/weapons), composite bow, agriculture & animal husbandry would provide a unequal match from a society with and one without. Throw in natural disasters, volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes and fires; you have a maddening mix of influences that formed mans history. A great read (although I don't agree totally) is "Guns, Germs and Steel, the fate of Human Societies by Jared Diamond. His detail into influences/inter actions & their impact is must read for those interested in this type of things. History is written by the "winners" & certainly National Pride, Religion & Idealogy come into play.
My wife is a Cebuano & speaks the dialect. I gave her Pigafetta's list of words, he recorded in Cebu & she found a fairly small % that she recognized. & I am sure you are knowledgeable of the different meanings of the same word in the different Philippine dialects. But if you hear someone, in their dialect, say "air con" or "computer" you don't have to understand their dialect to know what the word means or from where it is derived.

On the issue of turko, it seems you are not getting my point. I grew up hearing turko used to scare us when we were kids so was bombay. I did not even know then how they looked like. I had not met them. We lived in a province in mindanao. Since I heard that word, I started asking where they learned about turko and bombay. They said from their ancestors. There you go. The spanish definitely did not introduce bombay for Indian and I believe turks reached mindanao, hence the turko in the consciousness of the Filipinos and in the language.

If I have to carbon-date krises these are the ones I am interested to work on in particular order.


kris 1

kris 2

kris 3

kris 4

You said dated? What did you mean by that? Carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or Christian dating? When you said dated, is it the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what? If you want to make sure of dates, you better use a technology.

Now, in the absence of real recorded dates and scientific methods of dating, the rule in archeology regarding early tools, stone, wooden, and metal, applies-- from simple to complex. There are archaeological materials you can read online regarding the evolution of tools.

In archaeological dating, in the absence of carbon-dating and physical indication of real dates-- historical accounts and artifacts are also used in association. For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas. Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory.

then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared. I am still collecting data about sulu elephants and the role of a sulu sultan in (unknowingly) preserving extinct javan elephants that are said to be still existing in Borneo. Hence, the 19th century ivory "cockatoo" handle heads.

They are not really cockatoos but images of sarimanok (mythical bird). Ottoman art has such bird motif. I believe it was the ottomans and arab missionaries who brought the Islamic image to sulu.

There are just many things to consider. Next time you see a dated kris in a museum, ask the curator if it was the date the kris was collected or made. Most of the time, when tools are not carbon-dated, they won't put dates they were made but collected.

Baganing, you are going to find it really difficult to find anyone who is willing to allow carbon dating on a kris since it involves destroying a small part of the object to do it. Carbon dating sheaths and hilts is pointless as these are commonly changed over years. While we do not have this scientific method to date these weapons we do have many clues that allow us to put the different styles and characteristics that we see into catagories of different eras based in part on blades of provenence. The kris that you link to on Artzi's site are all fairly accurately dated. Kris #1 shows all the characteristics of a mid to late 19th century kris. Kris #2 is a bit older, maybe around 1800 to mid 19th century. Kris #3 is in the "archaic" style and could be late 18th century. Keris #4 again appears to be of the 19th century variety. You might want to get a hold of Robert Cato's book Moro Sword for a better understanding of the clues that help us designate the approximate age on these blades.
"I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is."
As Spunjer has pointed out this is obviously an inaccurate statement based on both his examples and the ones you have shown. To take it a step further, examine some of the post WWII blades which get even more simplistic in their design.
As for Spunjer's kris, i have also handled it and can assure you that it is indeed real ivory. You will also see numerous "archaic" style kris that are at least from the 1700s with ivory pommels so i am sorry to say that your research is just plain wrong here as well. Ivory pommels have been used on some of the oldest known Moro kris. There was much early trade for materials like ivory in the Philippines and ivory can also be found locally from marine sources. Older kakatu pommels on kris tend to be rather diminutive compared to later styles so the very large piece of ivory that you get from elephants might not be necessary for these smaller pommels.
Lastly, you can question why the word "vikingo" did not find it's way into to language, but i am afraid that it "proves" nothing. Perhaps it just wasn't pertinent enough. The Vikings made it to Spain, but i don't believe that they spent a lot of time pillaging there and they never had a conquering empire like the Ottomans. They also predate the Ottomans by a few centuries. The Turks, however, may have lingered in the Spanish memory and imagination for a longer period of time. :shrug:

I beg to differ - although this is true to a certain degree within the life of a people or civilization, even over the life span of a human population there can be changes in complexity from one time period to the next.

Example: look at the Indus Valley civilization - very complex with complex artifacts in the 2nd millenium BC, but compare this to the 1st millenuim it looks like the appex of civilization. The same can also be said of the region of the Middle East around what is now Palestine over several periods where different peoples changed the level of complexity of artifacts (ie. after the arrival of the "Sea Peoples" or the arrival of Amorite tribes into the region).

Thus a period of complexity in design or artifacts can be followed by a period of lower complexity (ie. the European "Dark Ages" after the fall of the Western Roman Empire). These kris may be older than you think and the use of ivory goes back millenia.

there are just too many levels to consider in dating mindanaoan kris.

First, the people of mindanao is not homogenous in language, art, weaponry. social development, etc.

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula.

It is possible that the samals were just starting to use simple Krises while maranaos known for their artistry already used the intricate ones or maybe the tausugs known for their warfare skills did not really care for the design of their krises but their functions and usability.

Muslims in Mindanao are not a homogenous group. The social and technological development in each community also varries.

So I cannot really say that the simple kris of samal made in 19th century and the intricate kris of maranao of 18th century disprove the validity of the simple-to-complex principle in archaeology.

If we date krises according to communities, we will see that pattern-from simple to intricate.

That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros.

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?

was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:
and then you came with this revelation:

and this:
i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?


pictures?

well, got to go...

Baganing, what i think you might find studying, let's say, just Sulu kris is that the dress (hilt forms and decoration) might get more complex as time progresses. We certainly see larger kakatus for instance. However, the blades themselves undoubtably get more simplistic over time. If you can show us otherwise with examples i would be both surprised and interested. :shrug:

wha-? wait a minute..


kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Ron, i don't think she's read Cato's book. :shrug: