Dear Lemmy,
On the "tangguh" of the horseshoes. How could you convince us that these materials were from Majapahit (13-15the century) and Mataram Islam (16th-18th century) period?

Ganjawulung

Hi Ganja, I attributed the "tangguh" of the horseshoes by the shape and size of them-there's one shoe which has (had!) a wavy edge and very large nails, this is characteristic of very early shoes of the 12th to 13th century CE, the other shoes are wide and thin with six holes-typical of the 15th and 16th century CE. Later shoes tend to be much thicker. It's a bit like keris tangguh-differant periods have differant characteristics. Works much nicer than more modern iron too!! Probably smelted with charcoal so there may not be as many impurities. There's a wee bit of Roman iron in there too....

Fantastique,

So we are waiting for your European Jalak Budo...

Ganjawulung

Dear Ganja,

Perhaps, the European who came first in Jawa led by either Magelhaens or Vasco da Gama (both werent Dutch/Londo). However, the Europeans who became the first ever popular were Londo. According to the habitual in language, Jawanese refers to the first popular or wellknown word. So everybody comes from European will be called Londo: ranging from londo Inggris to londo nge-Rum/Turk. Even, some people are called as Londo Ireng. Londo Ireng is for labelling/mockering an indegenous person who act unaccepted manner based on society surrounding.

Then other case is about monosodium glutamat (MSG). The first popular MSG was ajino-MOTO. Perhaps, Jawanese has tasted other MSG long before ajino-MOTO. Now, if you ask traders in traditional market MSG or "mitchin", they dont know at all. But, soon after you change a word from MSG to MOTO, everyone will smile and know what you want. They will ask you what brand you want: Moto SASA or ajinoMOTO (the original).

From these two examples, I just wonder if Jawaneses were/are so ignorant to choose unrelated word to labelling/specifying something. For instance in using BUDO to labelling the ancient keris. It should be any relation why Jawanese used it.


warm salam,
Usmen

Yes or No?
 

Dear Raden,
Even in "yes or no" question, according to "javanese manner" is not as simple as "yes or no" in other world. If you offer something to a "real" javanese in common village in Java (event in Sunda or West Java too), for instance: "Would you like something to eat?" or, "Please take it if you like," usually the javanese will say "Oh, no, thanks" (Mboten, mboten, sampun...) Although actually that person is hungry. Or need the thing you offer. So you must know yourself, whether the person needs something or not. Not depend on whether he or she says yes or no...
On the contrary, "gengsi" or "proudness" sometimes makes a javanese says "yes". Although actually he or she has nothing, and logically he must say no...

On the "word forming" also complicated. In "church cemetery" case, "kerk hoff" had changed as "krekop". But in Yogyakarta, there is a famous bridge that called "kreteg kewek" or "kewek" bridge. "Kewek", derived from the dutch word "kerk weg" to mention the bridge in the "church way" of Kotabaru... Kewek in Kotabaru, is different with "kewek" in javanese daily dialog. In the daily dialog, "kewek" means "speak not in a good manner, too much talk... etc". So complicated.

Event the famous street in Yogyakarta, "Malioboro". Is it original Javanese name? Does it come from the word "Marlboro", the famous fort of Marlboro? And why not "Vredeburg"? If you look at the reality that Fort of Vredeburg is in Malioboro street?

Ganjawulung

dear Gonjo,

I still believe that all "slippery" Jawa words have their roots as you elabotaed above.

In the most extrem example is "Malioboro" street. In my opinion, it should refer to Dutch language and culture rather than English ones. It should not refer to the famous fort of Malboro. Yes, even the was a short era of English occupation during Raffles expedition. In this era, "Pakualaman Castle" lost very sacred keris "Kiai Gumarang" after defeated by Raffles soldiers. Then, the Prince of Pakualaman went to Semarang to beg the keris mentioned above. After Raffles' Lieutenant gave that keris back to Prince Pakualam, the name was changed from "Kiai Gumarang" to "Kiai Wewe Putih". Litteraly, "Wewe Putih" means a white female ghost. It is very famous ghost in hilly countryside. But, Wewe Putih in this case daesnt mean what Jawa people beleive in one ghost. It reffers to "Wewehane Wong Putih" (come from the donation of white people (Englishmen)). So, once Kiai Wewe Putih was occupied by English.

Back to Malioboro
Lets make a similiar comparation of words again as you did

Zuitenborg (original) = Ontosoro (Jawa) = it is Bogor city now
..........org (original) = Malioboro (Jawa)

I still have an assumption that Malioboro came from a dutch word which represent a significant place, situation or anything else at that time. So, it was not fallen from the sky/heaven. However, I dont know from what word either. Perhaps, someone who his mother tongue is dutch may help us.

Back to keris
I hope all kerislovers dont misintepret this discussion (Ganja v. Usmen) as unrelated topic in term of keris waroeng kopi. Hope this discusion gives benefits for a background when we talk further about keris in our beloved waroeng.

warm salam,
Usmen

for additional opinion:

Zuitenzorg [?]
Zuitenborg (original) = Ontosoro (Jawa) = it is Bogor city now
..........org (original) = Malioboro (Jawa)
M......borg = Malioboro

if I am not mistaken "Borg" refers to "Little Castle"
There are two little castle near Malioboro street. First, on the right is Dutch Residence (opposite of Vredeburg fort). Second, on the top is Sultan Castle.

warm salam,
Usmen

According to novelist Pramoedya Ananta Toer, in one of his novel, Bogor derived from dutch word "Buitenzorg", Raden...

Other dutch-indo words in javanese are: "pit" (bicycle) from "fiets", also part of bike such as "stang" (bar), "pedal" from (peddle). And "sepur" (train) from "spoor". And the "monumental" on word-invention in javanese is the naming of solonese traditional dress of "beskap" that derived from dutch word "beschaafd" (civilized). That's just to differ or "mockery" to the older style, mataraman style of Yogyakartanese that called "sorjan" (this is original javanese word). Solonese, in daily mockery often says, they are more "beschaafd" than Yogyakartanese. (Please, don't be angry, for the sake of keris knowledge...)

Ganjawulung

dear Ganja

Yes, you are right for "buitenzorg". Thanks.

For me no hartfeeling about those mockery words. Interestingly, the rivalry between Solonese and Jogjanese were/are very broad: most of every aspects. They tend[ed] to make differences. Perhaps, it was the manifestation of the struggle of power/influence. What consequences were that situation for keris world/development?

For instance, in other thread we had long discusssion about "mBesut"ing v. preserving keris. Solonese's v. Jogjanese's way. Both ways are supported by philoshipical, technical and even spiritual reasons. Then, my question is whether those phil, tech and spirutual reasons came before or after the different action. Reflecting to the rivalry between two societies, there is an open opportunity that it was because "Solo wanted to be different from Jogja, vise versa". The explanations to support the action came latter.

as X file serial film, if the real situation like it (that the different approach to care of keris is the result of power/influence struglle), the truth is out there. Both were/are destructing ways. The right way is still in search (perhaps one of them through this waroeng. who knows :) )

warm salam,
Usmen