Just as a point of interest Jim, ethnographic studies are not limited to non-European cultures. Any culture can be studied in this manner. :)

Well observed David, thank you.

Salaams Amuk Murugul ~ The net effect upon Sri Lankan home grown blades during the Dutch and English periods may have been disastrous as outlined (and with a very impressive bibliography) by Rose Solangaarachchi Postgraduate Institute of Archaeology University of Kelaniya at ~

http://thakshana.nsf.ac.lk/pdf/VIDUR...%2019_1_30.pdf

Quote"In ancient times the caste system was mainly occupational based. As a result technology was preserved by being handed down from generation to generation.The caste system was developed to maintain the socio economic systems of the day.The social system changed with the advent of foreign rule and as a result the traditional technological know how was lost under colonialism.

Another reason for the decline was the cheap import of iron and steel implements imported from Europe and the inability of the indigenous iron producers to adopt new advances in technology".Unquote.

For other linkages in the story see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This badik came into Australia pre-1914, bought in Batavia.

I have only ever seen one bladed weapon with similar markings.

Hello Alan,

Thanks for the pics!

It's been heavily stained as expected for Jawa blades while the remaining fullering/etc. seem to point to a recycled European blade. How would you judge the metal? Can you exclude the possibility of this blade having been crafted by a pande Jawa? (Seems unlikely to me to be a Jawa-made look-a-like - just trying to take advantage of your experience and you having this piece at your hands...)


What kind of Indo piece was this other one?

These VOC-marked blades are slightly more common than that - will try to post pics of some more examples ASAP.

Regards,
Kai

I'd prefer not to indulge in speculation Kai. I really only like to comment if I have some sort of evidence to form an opinion on, and all I have with this piece is the certain knowledge of when it entered Australia.

It looks old, but the technology used by smiths in old Europe and smiths in old Jawa was pretty much the same, so there is really nothing I can base an opinion on.

As for how common this sort of thing may be, I can only state my own experience, and I've only ever seen one other blade with a similar stamp. I'm uncertain where, but it was probably one of the museums in Central Jawa, most likely in Solo. I cannot remember what this other piece was, but it was very likely to have been a sword of some kind.

Sorry I cannot be more informative.

Alan, I am so delighted to have your input here, and of course I recognize the cautions you exercise in speculations as professionalism has always been your hallmark. The example you have shared is most interesting, and I wondered the same thing as Kai, whether this blade was produced in Jawa, or indeed a cut down blade from Dutch VOC hanger. The metal, to my untrained eye, had the coarse look of many of the pedang etc. (please pardon my inept description:) but then, as far as I have known, if native made why would it have a fuller? Further, why would the maker have placed spurious VOC marks on it? It seems to me that in these regions, there was not the same emphasis on European 'quality' in blades that was so pertinent in so many other native cultures in colonial settings .


Several days ago I began retracing old notes and material on VOC blades and found considerable examples listed, and was surprised at some of the almost nuanced variations in some of the contexts found. It seems that my earlier speculation that perhaps these dated VOC blades were Dutch products specifically intended for export to these colonies was entirely implausible. Apparantly the VOC blades were produced for purchase and use by the forces of the VOC, which were largely foreign and their kit was of course their own responsibility. These were not 'regulation issues' and the types of blades of ranging form and produced over a period far beyond the mid 18th century as I presumed.

It would seem that most of these VOC blades were produced in Solingen for the Dutch, and from what I understand it appears many were of cutlass and hanger type for the shellguard, alternating quillon swords typically used by Dutch sailors from mid 17th century through the 18th. With this being the case, as with most Solingen or contracted instances, this may account for some of the curious variations as applied in various workshops.

For example, in some cases the kamer (chamber) letter is below the VOC device rather than above, as typically seen. In one example of a Dutch hanger the VOC has the Amsterdam (most commonly seen) but the majuscule 'A' has a 'v' type drop down center bar rather than the usual straight. This corresponds of course to other German markings using this style 'A' though usually earlier, the date with VOC is 1742.
There appear to be cutlass/hanger examples dated as early as 1685, but I feel there must be many earlier.

On many examples the date is encapsulated by crosses, 'x's or of course the quad configured dots or lozenges previously mentioned as seen on the 'dump' and 'stuiver' coins issued for the VOC. These kind of four figure patterns are of course often seen on blades produced in Germany used in the same accompanying manner, and may be presumed to represent the cross in my opinion . This same kind of representation may be the purpose of the four petal flower or clover (kleeblatt) found almost invariably on 17th century 'walloon' swords on the quillon disc.

The six kamer (chambers) of the VOC were Amsterdam (seeming primary); Delft; Rotterdam; Enkhuizen; Middelburg and Hoorn.

Other examples with dates on various archipelago weapons in the Dutch colonial complex were pedang VOC 1788 (Hoorn); weapon from Cental Timor VOC 1774 (Amsterdam) blade sharply rebated at tip; pedang 1759 VOC (Hoorn); pedang Seenda VOC 1773, (Amsterdam); another unidentified VOC (Amsterdam) 1685.

It seems that the VOC configuration found later in 18th century on cavalry style arming swords with VOC and 'A' had become almost lozenge shaped with the two aligned contiguously. The date read across the blade horizontally and under the device rather than in line with the blade as commonly known. The date 1787 is seen on an excavated example of one of these as is one surrendered by Dutch to British in South Africa 1795 and mounted in Scottish basket hilt .
Curiously, another Dutch hanger VOC 1794 has the same linear alignment which seems standard on all others so the arming blades seem to have been an anomaly.

I hope that this material taken from the corpus of notes I 'excavated' :) will be helpful as we move forward examining the diffusion and sources of these blades .

I would note here that it seems that the date 1768 is one that has been recurring, at least in my recollection. While not yet clear, it seems that there was war between Ceylon and the Dutch in that year but cannot recall which events were in place. I wondered if perhaps those circumstances may have produced a larger volume of swords which became either captured or surplus?

Best regards,
Jim

Some time ago I was trying to write an article about podang variations and also came across a few Batak pieces with VOC blades. I will try to retrace pictures of those.

My working hypothesis for that article was - based on the examples I had seen was that the VOC mark had "status" for the Batak hence that local made blades bore the VOC markings without any reference of them being used by the Dutch.

Supporting hypotheses were:
-Locally made blades with the VOC mark exist
-The VOC mark was not added for tourists
-The VOC mark has added value for the user

I found some examples that would fit the descriptions but nothing substantial unfortunately.

Here some pictures from a 1903 auction that included a Batak podang with a VOC blade.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps4afbf504.png

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps44523f32.png

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...psbfd42b0c.png

This example had VOC marking - unfortunately no close up.
I have used the same pic twice - two is a rotated detail of the first one
Certainly was not the A(msterdam) but I think H(oorn)
Date looks like 1763 but I am not sure and I don't have the blade anymore.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...psbb7024bf.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...pseaf3e075.jpg

Thank you very much Erik, and it sounds like you were well on the way to a most promising article. With what you are saying, and I would defer to your knowledge on these weapons as these are far out of my field of study, it sounds like my thoughts on native perceptions of VOC blades are quite incorrect.

I think one of the reasons I had presumed that in Indonesian regions there would not have been the status or perception of desirability necessarily for the VOC blades is that I had thought that native made blades were far more regarded. I am unclear on whether the blades on weapons other than the keris had similar spiritual or talismanic properties, so that was part of my thought.

Also, I was not aware that native made versions of blades bearing copies of the VOC marks existed, and naturally that would well substantiate the case for these blades being considered of status if it were proven. it sounds as if the proof needed was not yet found, but I hope the research continues .

I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons...are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others?
If VOC blades were indeed considered of high status for whatever reason, could such blades, although foreign, be imbued with any such properties through ritual or ceremonial means?

I hope that these questions regarding these weapons will be met patiently with those here who are involved with their collection and study. As I have noted I am far out of my field here and my questions are meant to better understand the circumstances concerning these weapons.

Jim, insofar as Jawa & Bali are concerned, any weapon, indeed any object, including cooking pots, stirrups, buckles, walking sticks and a vast array of other objects, including farmland, can be regarded as "pusaka" and be considered to hold some of the properties of a keris that come from being pusaka. Such associated properties would include elements of ancestor worship and as status markers.

However, only the keris as pusaka possesses the special properties of cosmic symbolism and unification. Only the keris is a required part of formal dress.

I do not doubt for one moment that indigenous smiths in the old Indies made VOC marked blades, both for use by VOC personnel, and in some cases to provide additional talismanic content in the form of the VOC symbol. Indigenous Maritime South East Asian belief systems tend to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, so if a new source of power came upon the scene it was thought to be a good idea to include the symbolism of the new power along with the existing symbolism. This line of thought was particularly so in Jawa. For that matter, it still applies in Jawa with a segment of the population.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons…are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? [/QUOTE]
I would say yes Jim. The cultural relationship might not be exactly the same as the keris, but Tosan Aji as a sacred heirloom weapon extends to many different kinds of blades in the region.

Thank you so much Alan for that perfectly detailed explanation and that is important to know in evaluating the presence of VOC blades in various weapons throughout these regions. Actually that does make good sense in noting that the VOC symbol may well have been added to existing elements in their beliefs and symbolism.
I had forgotten that in many cases symbols and markings from outside sources, such as trade blades into colonial settings in India, North Africa etc. were indeed adopted into native perceptions and seen as talismanic and or imbuements of power and quality.
The great part of these kinds of discussions is learning!
Thank you as well David for your response.

VOC blade
 

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections. :D


I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.


In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet :)
In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with.
These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell ,
kinda like us :)

Yeah, I guess so Jim.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds.

Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot.

That is not the case today.

I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago.
I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures.
But they give once more an impression of the blade form.

At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang.
To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum.
To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay.
(I am pretty normal working class btw)
And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-)

best regards,
Willem

Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this...

Their operation was huge ... backed by an in built militia and private navy... :shrug:

Thank you Willem for posting your Javanese pedang.
Most of the Indonesian swords with the VOC mark in the blade seems to be from Java.
As the Dutch were very dominant in their present overhere (we all have heard about Batavia, even some of you don't know what it exactly was) it can't be a coincedence to encounter most of the VOC blades overhere.

@ Jim and Alan: Yes the bad old days...when people could count on their pension still.... :)

Maurice

Last week I spoke with an older collector who mentioned most keris were around 200 guilders in the Netherlands in the late 70s to early 80s - that is more than you will have to pay today for a "simple" keris. So looking back they were more expensive in that period as well. Maybe internet has brought relative prices down?

Anyway we should stay on topic - VOC blades :)

Good idea Erik!

Here three swords with VOC dated blades in the Tropenmuseum collection of Amsterdam.
Two Timor swords, and one Batak sword.
One Timor sword came in the collection in 1887, and I think we can assume the other two also around that time as it's coming out of the same collection of the "Koninklijk Zoologisch Genootschap Natura Artis Magistra".

The VOC stamps, are all three marked with the "A" from the Amsterdam chamber, dated 1749, 1768 and 1786.


Maurice

And a Borneo lance, donated by Herman Celosse to the Bronbeek museum Arnhem in 2012.

Salaams All Note to Library Please see http://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndonesiaVOC.htm#VOC for a comprehensive description of The Voc and related companies and histories/ stamps etc etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Mercenary Switch Over. Dutch to British.
 

Salaams All ~It is interesting to note who was fighting for who!

Here is a small snippet regarding the switch over of mercenaries from the Dutch period to the British;

From http://www.army.lk/history.php

~ Quote''During the first half century of British occupation there were uprisings and palace intrigues particularly after the adventure into the Kandyan Kingdom. The Kandyan forces resorted to guerrilla warfare and were quite successful in their conflict against a better armed force of the British. Initially the British had their own troops for the defence of the Island which included naval vessels, artillery troops and infantry. Their headquarters was in Trincomalee.

In 1796, troops in the Dutch service who were Swiss and Malay were mercenaries transferred to the British East India Company. The Malays formed initially as a Malay Corps and later in 1802 as the 1st Ceylon Regiment under a British Commanding Officer. In the same year, a 'Sinhalese' unit was raised and called the 2nd Ceylon Regiment, also known as the 'Sepoy' corps. In 1803 a 3rd Ceylon Regiment was raised with Moluccans and recruits from Penang. All these regiments fought in the Kandyan wars of 1803. More Sinhalese and Malays were recruited to these regiments and in 1814 a 4th regiment was raised comprising African troops. In 1817 the name of the regiment was changed to the Ceylon Rifle Regiment.

After the Matale rebellion led by Puran Appu in 1848, the recruitment of Sinhalese was stopped. The history of the Ceylon Rifle Regiment marks the first phase of the employment of non-British personnel in Ceylon for service in the British Military establishment".Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Just when you thought it was safe to buy on e-fake...
 

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

:)