Age?
 

How old are these figural hilts?
The four I started this thread with all seem to be very old.
Most of the ones I have seen so far seem quite old and often quite worn.
The 4 I have I think (without any supporting proof) are 19th century or older.
Is there any dating possible on any of these?
Jensen works with data from old collections so he has sustainable proof.
With our items it is more difficult but are there hints to date the hilts approximately?

Regards, Erik

I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik.

There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on.

I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago.

The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing.

But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things.

Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.

RAKSASA & Buta Bajang Figure Hilts
 

Dear All,

Again, this was just an intermezzo. Just call it a weekender keris sight-seeing. Just want to share with you, pictures of what many of you call such hilts as -- raksasa hilts. Or, "buta bajang" hilts, whatever. Really I don't have the "pakem" book yet on such hilts.

I would like to thank you too, if you wish to share too, your pictures on such hilts. I believe, there are still more such hilts all around here...

GANJAWULUNG

CLOSE ups of one of them
 

Here are close ups on one of them...

GANJAWULUNG

MORE Close ups on other hilts
 

Some of them are not like "buta" or "raksasa", but like figures of Javanese wayang...

GANJAWULUNG

Nice handles Pak G.

You're right, it is a pity we do not have any guide book relating to this form of hilt.

I've posted some rough pics of a few of mine, but really, I don't know if they strictly fit the parameters or not --- but I'm certain that they fit the "whatever" classification.

MUDRA?
 

Thanks a lot, Alan for sharing your fantastic "butas"... Is there any thing to tell on some of their 'gesture'. Any 'speculation' idea on the "mudra", the special gesture of their hands and fingers maybe?

GANJAWULUNG

My favourite kind of keris hilt!
In the late Karsten Sejr-Jensen´s book and CD there is an analysis of the mudra signs etc.

Here are some of mine.

Michael

Sorry Pak Ganja, this is an area that I know virtually nothing about.

Supposedly many of these figures are found in the pralambapada mudra, but my knowledge is insufficient for me to confirm this, or to speculate upon the reason, if indeed they are.

It has been suggested to me by a Chinese academic who teaches in this area of knowledge that perhaps these mudras are not so accurately portrayed and that to truly interpret them might be more than a little difficult.

These hilts are probably very fertile ground for some serious research.

Nice hilts. I too don't know much about them, but having grown up around Hinduism (I'm Indian and Nepalese), I find Indonesian representations of figures from Hindu mythology fascinating. Just out of curiosity, does 'buta' mean ghost?

Not 'ghost', but 'giant'. In some (javanese) wayang stories, giants were not always gigantic in size. Only the form (appearance) is 'giant' like, but the size of the creature is told as -- sometimes even smaller than human being. "Buta Bajang" means "Dwarf giant"... Literally "buta" (javanese) means "giant". Unfortunately, in Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) "buta" means "blind"..

GANJAWULUNG

Ma kasih ganja, in Hindi, "bhut" means ghost, which is why I was curious.

Great thread, though i would like to point out that we had a very similar thread on these figurative hilts this past spring. It might not be a bad idea to merge the 2 threads just to have all this info in one place, but for now i will just provide a link. :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=raksasa

favorites
 

Yes my most favorite type as well.

The discussion last time (as mentioned by David) with good input from Alan was very interesting.
Also the krisdisk mentioned by Michael and of course the text by Martin Kerner on this theme is quite interesting (for those that read german..)

Erik

Well this is the only rakshasha hilt I have - ivory, gold, and Balinese:

Good idea David.

I'd forgotten that we'd been down this road before, if I'd remembered I would not have started walking along it again.

Thanks, Michael, for showing "your avatar" in complete view.. Thanks a lot too, to Erik and David. These are more pictorial post of such hilts...

GANJAWULUNG

And more poses of this old model...

GANJAWULUNG

Really great examples Ganjawulung!
Thanks for sharing!

I am always searching for these but really good ones are harder and harder to find...(at least here in Holland)

Erik

Nicely carved fellow, but he doesn't look particularly old... :shrug:

Old ones, David. But unfortunately, it was my fault to clean it too clean. It happened long time ago. So it (they) had lost the patina. Originaly they were so dirty and heavy patinated. I cleaned it with tooth-brush and detergent. And after it became so pale, then I put coconot oil.... But I will never do such silly thing again. Really, it is not new ones...

GANJAWULUNG

Difficult too to find in Jawa. All are gone somewhere in the world... I have couple in the past, but that was my fault. I cleaned the patinated hilts with tooth brush and soap. Never do like this, Erik...

GANJAWULUNG

A couple more
 

These are my ones

Roy

I don't know if this is have been a mistake, the fine carvings sometimes not to see when the handle have to much patination. Some of my handles I have cleaned also.

sajen

Some of my wooden handles I have shown in the other threat before.
Here three handles in ivory. Please apologize the bad quality of the photos, it have been a fast snapshot.

sajen

Yeah, soap and water sounds a bit drastic.

I use a tooth brush and baby oil to clean really dirty hilts, and really, any other sort of carvings too.

The oil tends to soak into the gunk and soften it, and after you've revisited the carving a few times you'll normally have all the muck removed.

Yes Alan, now I clean with very very soft tooth-brush only, and then soft clothes...

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Roy and Sajen,

Thanks for the sharing. And here are more on variations of the 'giant' creatures. A hilt of horn below. More looks like wayang figures...

GANJAWULUNG

WAYANG hilt
 

And this is probably the wayang hilt. Hopefully, to be older than Cirebon era. Or Pajajaran?

GANJAWULUNG

This hilt is similar to two I have shown in the other threat before. But I don't know how old this hilts. Here again the pictures.

sajen