Thanks Spiral and Sikh_soldier for the clarification.

My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm

Toshkhana is there any way to get a higher resolution photo of the hand near the center of the painting you posted.

All the Best
Jeff

Thats just written for westerners Jeff. ;) Not the Faithfull.

Read the stuff for the faithfull. Or talk to them....


Spiral

He, He, He...

I have, they must tow the party line with all westerners then. :)

Jeff

mmmm I guess politcal correctness & public knife fear in Canada demands a subtlty of answear knowadays then, to prevent falling foul of the law,public opinion etc.

There are many Sikhs on this forum. 3 at least in this thread. ;)

Sikhsoldier is one of them.

Evry Sikh Ive known woud use their kirpan as a weapon if they needed.

Singh means Lion after all. Not sheep. ;)

Spiral

Hi Sikh Soldier, just want to state that I respect the distinctiveness of the Sikh religion, and I do not have any agenda of merging it with Hinduism. However, I do believe that all religions are to some extent inspired by those that developed before them, I just thought that looking at some of the possible inspirations for Sikhism could help shed some light on why they came to use the Chakram.

Please note that Govind/Gobind is a Sanskrit name, and translated literally into English it is Go (Sanskrit for Cow) + Vind (Protector). In classic Hindu literature such as the Harivamsha and Mahabharata it is used as another name for Krishna. Here is a link confirming this:
http://www.indianchild.com/baby_name_indian_boy_g.htm

I am sorry if my theories have caused any offense, out of respect this will be my last post on the subject.

Kirpan
 

Hi guys, sorry for my late post, I did not realise was a second page :p

Also it did not seem that I was needed, spiral was as usual absolutely spot-on :)
Hi Jeff, the website you have looked at is in my humble opinion incorrect, it is contradictory whilst referring to the kirpan as integral for the concept of
Sant-Sipahi (Saint-Soldier) of a (baptised) Sikh, it then vehemently denies any possible idea of it being used as a weapon, and likens it to symbolic symbols such as the Christian cross.
whatever the reasons for people putting forward this definition of the kirpan (which definitely include those given by spiral), if one looks at pictures and paintings as recent as in the last hundred years it can be clearly seen by all, how the kirpan was considered i.e. a weapon.
indeed this can be inferred as well as how it may be used from its name;

Kirpa; Mercy/compassion
Aan; honour/dignity/righteousness

A definition of mere symbolism, ignores and undermines the Sikh's military and warrior heritage, the kirpan was introduced at a time when there was great oppression on all religions in India, it seems more than a symbol was required :D

PS I very much appreciate your comments, Roshan, although I did not mean to prohibit free speech.
However, I'm glad you recognised the issue; a very serious one regarding right-wing extremist groups such as the RSS in India who have as part of their agenda, to align Sikhism with Hinduism.
this has been the cause of great violence and it is only as I knew you would be aware of it, that I made the point. if someone else on the forum had made such a point, I would not have expressed disapproval but as a fellow Indian (I assume ;) ) I was certain you were aware.
thank you very much for your understanding Roshan

Thanks Sikh Soldier,

I will have to start looking at kirpans again, almost all that I looked at were junk pieces (one was a hilt with no blade). I stopped inspecting them assuming that they were cerimonial.

All the Best
Jeff

kirpan
 

Hi Jeff,

most modern daggers made for kirpan use are totally impractical, fit for a "symbollic" purpose.
There is no generic kirpan as long as it is practical (useable) it can be anything from small to large, i believe it must be single edged though.
Thus, you will find it difficult to find an authentic "kirpan" as it may just be an old dagger like a pesh kabz, it was only required that sikhs (Male + Female) carried atleast a single edged dagger at all times.

regards Baljit

greetings,

A big hello to all members of this forum, My name is 'Caveman' I have to comment on this topic although my post is 2 years going on 3 years late but I think this video will be very interesting to all members of the forum.

I think people should watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDNw2slOK3Y

it was shown on the discovery channel about the 'chakar'
so please all watch it and it will answer your questions...

regards